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Odd Question, but I gotta ask.

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Odd Question, but I gotta ask.

Postby gp100man » Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:41 am

Is there any country out there who is NOT getting a new or used(Canada), diesel/electric submarine?? It seems like every country that has a coastline now feels the need to have diesel/electric submarine.
Nothing a wrong with that, just an observation.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsub/ ... 31206.aspx
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Re: Odd Question, but I gotta ask.

Postby ssn705 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:00 pm

In short, with the exception of some African states, the answer is NO. The proliferation of diesel submarines throughout the world over the last 10 years is astronomical.
Which is why the US needs more SSNs :)

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Re: Odd Question, but I gotta ask.

Postby Tom Dougherty » Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:52 am

Why not restart diesel production? With AIP, you can make very quiet submarines that can go on for days without running diesels. If for no other reason, it would be helpful for SSNs to have US diesels to practice detection. It would be nice to have more SSNs, but at $2 billion a boat, the expense is really getting up there. I can remember in the 1980's that the LA class was criticized for being $200 million per unit. Yes, the Virginias are more capable, but one submarine can only be in one place at a time. I know EB has done a very good job of getting the Virginia class cost under control and delivering the submarines under budget and ahead of schedule, but a mixed High-Low force of SSNs and AIP boats might make more sense for the US.
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Re: Odd Question, but I gotta ask.

Postby ssn705 » Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:36 pm

Right now we get a fair amount of practice by playing with allied diesels during RIMPAC and other exercises. We also "rent" diesels...Swedish example...While the diesels have some advantages, nothing can match the flexibility of an SSN. Also, consider the "startup" costs involved in going back to diesels. Another significant logistics pipeline, extra trainers and courses, more maintenance infrastructure. Believe it or not, diesel submarining is quite different than nuclear so there is also a massive lack of experience. I have been a proponent of having some diesels for certain areas (Persian Gulf for example), but the only way we would probably go about it by buying "used" and leveraging our close ties with Australia to use their training infrastructure (my thoughts at least).

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Re: Odd Question, but I gotta ask.

Postby gp100man » Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:30 am

This article says that there are 39 nations now operating 400+ D/E submarines. I actually agree with both of you, we(USA) should have both nuclears submarines, and D/E, even with the cost of the start up. Mostly due to the shallow depth of the Persian Gulf and other bodies of water(coastal areas). If memory serves me right, I think the Persian Gulf is only 200 feet deep. A large submarine no matter how quiet would seem to run into problems without more water to work with.
Hows about this idea-------------Have on the seabed in certain top secret lolcations, where a D/E sub can go to with a ready charged pod of electricity so that she can recharge without the use of the diesel engines. Not unlike a jet aircraft that has to refuel in mid-air several times on a sortie. These overgrown duracell batties I'll call them could be developed to be on the underside of ships, or sitting on the seabed, I don't know, just an idea I was kicking around. The US D/E submarine is bitty boppin along when it realizes, hey I need a recharge, but I don't want to surface and make alot of noise. So I'll call HQ and get a ship for a duracell rendezvous. Like the WWII Japanese submarine, maybe these mini subs coul be piggybacked onto the aft deck, or inside of surface ships, or SSBNs with their missle silos gutted out of course.
See what happens when the gp100man has to much time on Christmas day, the mind starts to wonder alot.

http://www.strategypage.com/dls/article ... 5-2013.asp
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Re: Odd Question, but I gotta ask.

Postby gp100man » Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:50 am

From what I'm learning, the Chinese type 39A/41 YUAN class Diesel Elctric is the one to be concerned about. Not that the others aren't dangerous and a threat, but the Chinese YUAN seems to be a very
formidable submarine. Seems like the author of the article would include the new Russian KILO type just released. I would think that it too is a serious concern.
Anyhow, just ordered this kit on ebay-------Bronco 1/350 Chinese Yuan Attack Submarine. Gotta have it in my collection. Already had the 1/350 scale KILO.
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Re: Odd Question, but I gotta ask.

Postby Tom Dougherty » Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:15 am

Hows about this idea-------------Have on the seabed in certain top secret lolcations, where a D/E sub can go to with a ready charged pod of electricity so that she can recharge without the use of the diesel engines. Not unlike a jet aircraft that has to refuel in mid-air several times on a sortie. These overgrown duracell batties I'll call them could be developed to be on the underside of ships, or sitting on the seabed, I don't know, just an idea I was kicking around.


Wow…just a spectacularly naive idea…you don't know much about batteries, do you? First, the most "charge" one can hope for from one battery to another is that when you reach half charge and the EMF of both batteries are equal, well that's as far as your charge goes. You can't charge a battery "uphill" from another battery that is "downhill" in terms of stored charge. So once you equalize the charges (roughly 50%) of the two batteries, you're done. That's why a diesel is used to generate electricity to fully charge a battery- a generator can continue to supply amps over and above what is necessary to get the battery fully recharged (and really all that is happening during charging is driving a chemical conversion reaction with the electricity that when reversed will provide a source of EMF).

As far as storing the batteries on the seabed, roughly 95% of the ocean bottom is too deep to be accessed by submarines. So, you would be very limited in locations (mostly coastal waters) to park batteries on the seabed. Also, how do you keep them charged? They will slowly drain even if not tapped. And how do you recharge your storage batteries once they have been used? Also, temperatures on the ocean floor tend to be very cold, which reduces battery life and efficiency. As far as having ships provide the charges, that kind of defeats the whole purpose of submarine stealth. Plus lead acid batteries are extremely heavy and would effect the handling of your recharging ships. Also, effective ranges while on batteries is at most 200-300 miles, so you would need a lot of recharging ships operating close to the shores of a potential adversary. Also, trying to connect sources of power in salt water can readily lead to short circuits with battery explosions & fires, etc. These are the reasons why other countries are developing alternatives to batteries such as AIP that do allow propulsion for extended periods without having to run diesels.
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Re: Odd Question, but I gotta ask.

Postby gp100man » Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:06 am

Your right Tom, I do know noting about batteries. It was daydreaming.
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