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1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

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Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Postby rdutnell » Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:47 pm

IKES! Photobucket appears to be in the bucket as I can’t upload or view my pictures on their site and all of my links on this forum seem to have disappeared. I’m fairly new to posting images using photobucket. Is this a common problem? Are the images gone forever, or will they come back at some point?
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Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Postby rdutnell » Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:57 pm

Happy Friday Everybody!

Well Scott, I don’t know if the method you describe would be any easier or not. Raised weld lines are about as simple as it gets, because it is easy to do a project geometry command to put the outline on the surface. This creates, as you probably know, a spline that you can loft any shape along. When I was working on Greenling, I tried various shapes and found that circles worked the best. Plates, or other surfaces, that protruded from a curved surface, or are recessed into it, are not so easy, because no matter how hard I try, I cannot extrude or loft splines to form a solid. I always just get a surface, even when my spline is closed and my settings are set for a solid. I went through multiple gyrations before I stumbled on to the method I am now using.

This just goes to show that the only thing more numerous than the different ways to accomplish a task in AutoCad is the multiple configurations of fleet boats. The SD Mast seems to be another prime example. As you guys may remember, I used the very picture that Tom last posted to do my mast design, as I posted in Update 11 on March 27, 2013. I was really happy with the design, until I started looking in detail at pictures of Batfish sent by Tom and Scott, and then it became a matter of who am I going to believe, the plans, or my lying eyes?

Below are two of the pictures that prompted me to change the design., with the second one being the coup de grace. Note the weld seam. They are clearly round, as is the mast, down to the lower seam. From there it transitions from the circle to the 28” rounded square that you mentioned Tom. Interestingly though, the new design still follows the plans you posted, because the only sections provided on the plans are at the very top and very bottom. Both of my designs have the end sections shown on the plans, the only difference being that the first design transitions from a circle to the rounded square over the entire length of the mast and the new design remains a circle down to the lower weld seam and then transitions to the roundish square from there. Both are vertical on the tailing edge.


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Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Postby rdutnell » Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:27 pm

That answers that question. The images are back.
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Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Postby rdutnell » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:27 pm

UPDATE 41

Hello again guys!

I decided to have a crack at whatever that object is near the top of the SD Radar mast that appears to support a lot of antennas. It was quite a challenge, and once again the design was based on pictures kindly sent by Tom and Scott without the benefit of any dimensions. The main pictures I used are shown below. The first two gave me the overall shape, the third provided the approximate height of the structure, and the last showed me how it attaches to the mast.

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Ass I said before there are numerous ways to do things in AutoCad and there may be an easier way to create this object, but here is how I chose to do it. The first step, as usual, was to draw the outline of the object, which in this case was difficult, as I had little to go on, and took a few tries before I was able to make a shape that I was happy with.

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In trying to make the right shape, I would draw it in plan view, extrude it, and rotate my view to compare it to the photos. I think the shape I ended up with compares favorably to the pix.

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The platform is thicker at the base, and tapers to the break point, so I created this by drawing a triangle, mirroring it, and lofting between the two.

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This object was once again made out of sheet steel, so scaling was an issue. I shelled the platform to 0.5’ (which is between 1/32” and 1/16” at 1/144 scale).

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Next, I added the center brace.

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I then rounded the top edges and prepared to do the support end (although I later changed this.)

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I made a rectangular plate extruded 0.06’ from the surface and bolts, which were extruded hexagons that had been inscribed inside 0.06” radius circles, but then scaled to 0.9 to fit. This will push the limits of the SLA. After doing one plate and bolt set I copied it to make the other one.

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Note the red circles in the image above. They were made in preparation for the next step which was creating the brackets, which were made by lofting between the circles.

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The bolts and plates were mirrored to the other side and everything was joined together.

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I next focused on the support struts, and after a couple of attempts came up with the configuration shown below. The most difficult part was drawing the line in the correct location. After that I just lofted a circle down it and mirrored it to the other side.

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The pictures show plates around the strut contact points to the mast, so I made these much as I did the access plates. The most difficult part of this step was finding the exact locations for the plates on the surface.

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At this point, I switched focus to the top of the mast. For this I had a really good picture provided by Scott…

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…So I started drawing and lofting circles…

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…Until I got to the section that is cross sheet steel, where I lofted between two different size rectangles and rotate/copied it then made a bolt as described before and copied it. I then mirrored the two bolts, and then mirrored all four of them to get 8 total.

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Then it was back to circles. The narrow section is worrisome. Even though it has twice the radius of the SLA minimum of 0.005” (0.06’ real size), I think it will be too thin to support itself. We’ll see.

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I next worked on another unknown object and the bracket that supports it. I suspect it is some sort of directional sensor because there are similar sensors on the sides of the support platform positioned seemingly for this purpose. Maybe?

Anyway the bracket was made using lofted traingles, rectangles and a subtracted circle. These plates are only 0.03” thick so I think they will print, but they will be delicate. I left them unattached because it may be better not to print them and add them during the build.

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Next I made the conduit and connecting hardware for the sensor, starting with the lower one, which is a combination of lofted circles and hexagons…

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…Followed by the ones on the underside of the sensor bracket…

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This was followed by the hardware on the top side of the bracket…

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…And rounding the bracket edges.

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Last, I made the sensor itself. I left it red and unattached too, because I again think that it may be best to make these pieces during the build.

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Even though I made this piece complete, it may be best to make the whole assembly with PE, but for now I am going to go with what I have.

CHEERS!!!
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Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Postby rdutnell » Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:47 am

QUESTION?

I’m debating on adding the extra sensors and conduit to the SD Mast platform (or whatever it is called) and got a start at it, but am thinking that it may be too much. As I have said numerous times, the smallest conduit I can make is 0.06’ diameter. I started laying it out and making the tubes, but I am not sure that I like it. The conduit is awfully big and I was thinking that I should perhaps just add the sensors and do the conduit during the build. On the other hand, even though it isn’t as big in the pictures, it is still the dominant feature. What do you guys think?
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Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Postby salmon » Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:56 pm

Your doing a great job on this! I do not think you should worry about the cables especially if you cannot make them scale. That kind of work can be done during assembly.
If you can cut, drill, saw, hit things and swear a lot, you're well on the way to building a working model sub.
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Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Postby JWLaRue » Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:21 pm

I agree with Tom. Adding the cables later makes good sense. I think you'd probably want to have the cables with a good circular cross-section which I suspect won't work well if made part of the 3D printing.

-Jeff
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Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Postby rdutnell » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:11 am

UPDATE 42

Thanks Tom and Scott! I appreciate both the kind words and the feedback. I think I have come to the same conclusion, if for no other reason than the fact that making some of the bends I think requires skills beyond my ability. Even if I could do it, the nature of the cabling conduit has irregularities that I couldn’t match. Plus, I think the small size makes them more suitable for stretched sprue, or thin wire.

So, I decided to scratch the cabling, but keep the sensors, at least for the time being. The sensors were made by slicing off the one I originally made and making two copies.

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I then moved them to the correct locations and rotated them to more or less match the pictures. Again, they are a little big, but I think I will keep them. If they don’t come out good, or are too dominant, I can always cut them off.

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The next thing I did was prepare to make the access plates and top grab.

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After drawing the plate and positioning it correctly, I lofted it into the mast…

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…And like before copied the mast to the side and used the intersect command to make the plate wedge, that I then moved out 0.06’. Note that I hadn’t attached the sensors yet.

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I then simply moved the copied mast back in place and I had my plate, so I extruded the bolts. In actuality these would be nuts, with a bolt sticking out, and not bolt heads, but I am already at the limit of the SLA with the 0.06’ bolt heads

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The bolts were then moved into the plate using the guidelines to leave 0.06’ sticking out.

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Since the mast is circular at this point, rotate/copied the plate and bolt 90 degrees and then mirrored it to the other side.

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Next was the top most grab. I started by using the project geometry command to project the location lines I had drawn onto the mast.

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I then opened my grab drawing and copied it to the projected line, but since the top one is bent down I rotated it until I thought it looked right. It’s not exact, but it’s pretty close.

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This pretty much does it for the SD mast, unless of course I see something later that I missed, which is very possible. I think that the SLA should be able to print all of the details I have made, with the possible exception of the sensors and the bolts on the end of the platform bracket. I know that I will be adding the support flange and bolts to the base of the mast at some point, but I have yet to see good pictures of them and I am mostly working on vertical surfaces so far.

Another thing I have been giving thought on is whether or not I should consider segmenting the mast into three pieces; the lower mast, below the platform, the platform, and the upper mast. This way, if the top pieces don’t print very well, the bottom would still be good, and the top could be made out of PE.

Man this is fun! So many possibilities, and so many little challenging problems to solve. I love it!
Now on to the periscope shears.

CHEERS!!!
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Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Postby rdutnell » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:13 pm

UPDATE 43


Good afternoon everybody!

After my last post mentioning the support flange and bolts at the base of the mast, and my lack of pictures of the feature, Scott sent me the picture shown below, that clearly shows the flange and bolts.

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Thanks to Scott and the great picture, I was able to add the flange and bolts to the mast. I started with the flange, and figuring that each bolt would be 0.12’ in diameter I made the flange so that each side would be 0.16’ wide.

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Next I drew a 0.6’ circle, inscribed a hexagon in it, and lofted it.

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With one bolt completed, I used the copy and mirror commands to make the rest of them.

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That’s it for now - Short and sweet!
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Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Postby Scott T » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:38 pm

I think you only need eight bolts per side. :D But who is counting. Of course there my be
more down the sides and that is the short side of the rectangle. But I think the drawing said
it was a square shape.
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Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Postby rdutnell » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:22 am

UPDATE 44

DOH! Maybe not so sweet. That’s what I get for trying to squeeze it in, in 30 minutes, before class. I too had counted 8 on the sides and then had a brain fart, I guess, and put 8 on the sides plus others going around the corner. Duuuhhhh!

Anyway, it was an easy fix. I just sliced the mast at the top and bottom of the bolts, separated the mast slice from the bolts and joined the slice to the rest of the mast again. I then deleted all but one of the bolts and started over.

When I say started over, I meant it, because I decided to do a combination bolt and washer to better simulate the real deal. The bolt is the minimum 0.6’ (which by the way is ~3/4”, which probably isn’t too far off what they really are. The nuts are hexagons sized to look right with respect to the bolts and to fit on the flange. Since there are 8 per side, I drew one set and then copied it 3 more times to do half of one side.

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Because the base is in fact a rounded square, I mirrored these around a line connecting the corners of the would be square.

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I then mirrored them again around the vertical center axis…

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…And yet again around the horizontal center axis.

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It looks a lot better now, for those of us that are counting Scott.

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I don’t think I could effectively model the clips, or whatever they call those things that appear to be backups to keep the nuts from loosening, so I’m not even going to try. I did however notice in Scott’s picture that there is a grab looking brace on the mast to support the conduit for the cables running up the mast, so I decided to add it. I started by copying and pasting a grab into the drawing, slicing off the bent part and adding extensions to the arms.

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I then positioned it properly and angled it down like in the picture.

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I also added the tubes that the cable conduits come out of.

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I decided that these pipes, like the conduit would best be done during the build but drilled hulls in the top of the fairwater to accommodate them.

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I also drilled a hole to receive the mast, which I had yet to do.

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At this point I believe that the SD mast is mostly completed, although there may still be some plates on the forward face that I can’t decipher in the photos I have seen. In any case I think I’m now going to move on to the periscope shears.

CHEERS!!!
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Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Postby rdutnell » Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:18 am

UPDATE 45

Good Morning Everybody!

Being satisfied with what I have on the SD mast with my current knowledge of it, I moved on to the periscope shields.

The first thing I did was modify the platform at the aft end. I did this by creating a polyline matching the shear profile…

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…Extruding it…

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And subtracting it.

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Next, I prepared to make the new platform by drawing a circle so that it intersected the shear at the inflection point and the end of the old platform, because I think that was good.

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I then extruded it and attached it to the upper shears.

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The next thing I did was layout the main induction breathers on the lower shear. On the port side the forward upper one is larger than the others. On the starboard side they are all the same size.

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In the image below, there are 8 different circles extruded partially into the shear…

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…Which were then subtracted.

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CHEERS!!!
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Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Postby Tom Dougherty » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:45 pm

At this point I believe that the SD mast is mostly completed


Minor point: I know you are building Batfish as she now exists, but that is probably more properly called an extensible mast. If you look at these two photos, one from 1944 and one "end of WWII" photo in May 1945, the SD mast was a different mast and was installed
as part of the periscope shears.
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he mast you have probably had an SV radar dish at one point, but I doubt it ever had an SD. These types of masts were added very late in the war, and while I have seen some SD antenna on them, most probably got an SV dish, as seen here on Flasher:
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The device now present must be from her reactivation period during the Korean War.
Tom Dougherty
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Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Postby rdutnell » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:59 pm

I like minor points. Even if they don’t effect what I end up doing with the model, the differences and evolution of these boats is fascinating to me.

When I first read your last post, Tom, I was somewhat confused. I mean the plans you sent that I used to make the model say “SD Mast”, and even include the sort of reverse divining stick (I’ll bet they weren’t a whole lot more effective) that is the SD. The SV had to be an improvement, but what a large profile it would cast. It makes sense now that the current configuration would be a Korean War configuration because with advances in electronics, and the positioning of the current sensors, I’m sure they could obtain more information on location, speed and bearing than from the SV, with a lot smaller profile. Anyway, if there is no longer an SD on the mast, it would no longer be an SD mast. I’m good with extensible mast if that is what you say they should be called.

This once again underscores the importance of picking a specific time to model. Ideally, I would have liked to model her the way she was on February 9, 1945, when she sank the first of the three Japanese submarines that she sent to their demise in 76 hours. Unfortunately, good pictures from the time are few and far between, and since I have great pictures the way she is, that’s the way I decided to build the model, and thus far, with everybody’s help it has been a really fun experience, and I think when all is said and done that I will have a really interesting model to look at, even if it isn’t 100% accurate.

Thanks again for your input Tom. I always enjoy your comments. I still haven’t figured out the answer to your test question, but I haven’t had time to investigate. It seems like I read it somewhere, but I can’t recall what boat it was, nor where I read it.

Russ
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Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Postby rdutnell » Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:47 am

UPDATE 46

Hey Guys!

Continuing with the periscope shears, I decided to do the base flanges next. I had an issue right off the bat though, as you can see in the image below. In the few photographs I have of the flange, it appears that the outer edges of the flanges are flush with the outer edges of the sides of the lower shear enclosure. So, the circle for the forward periscope flange was drawn first, using the center of the periscope as the center point and the edge of the platform on the lower shear as the radius point. As you can see, it looks like it should. When I copied the circle to the aft periscope shear however, you can see that the circles overlap, and although I don’t have a picture that shows it, and I have yet to make the trip to Muskogee, I doubt if they really overlap like that.

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I briefly considered slicing it and moving it, but because what I have was copied from the plans and moving it would necessitate a major overhaul, I opted to leave it and see how it would look with the flange completed. So, I extruded the circles up 0.06’ (0.05” at 1/144 scale), drew an octagon to locate the support braces, and made one of the braces by lofting between two triangles, 0.06’ apart positioned correctly on one of the points of the octagon.

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Looking straight down on it looked pretty cool.

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This one brace was copy/rotated and mirrored to complete the forward shear and then copied to the aft shear

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The center section looked OK so I put the nuts and bolts on using the same dimensions as before.

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There are 3 bolts between each brace, so I copy/rotated and then mirrored the one I drew to get the three nut/bolt combos shown in the image below.

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This trio was then copy/rotated and mirrored to create the rest of them.

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It looked pretty good from most angles, but not so much from the critical ones.
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It wasn’t horrible, but it wasn’t right either. I had to redo it, so I started by removing the nuts and bolts.

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I then sliced the shears off above the platform level and drew the circles in preparation for the new flange.

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Next, I moved the aft shear back so that the flanges wouldn’t intersect each other. The distance moved was 0.18’, not much.

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Next, I lofted the new flanges…

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…And made the new nuts and bolts.

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The final step was to extend the upper support platforms, which I did with extruded rectangles.

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I’m much happier with it now and am glad that I took the time to move it, especially since it was easier than I thought it would be.

CHEERS!!!
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