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1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

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Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Postby Scott T » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:21 pm

The limber holes above the torpedo openings can see through to the other side.
Place a floor shape below them so you can't see into the torpedo openings.
This has probably been taken care of by how you formed the torpedo door area.

The other limber holes should be sight blocked. By attaching a wall vertical from the underside of the
deck it could be blocked. This would form a T-shape with the deck as the top.

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Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Postby Tom Dougherty » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:40 pm

I was thinking of using “Fast Drying White Putty” made by Squadron Products, because I have some, but I will have to try the Bondo Glazing Putty you mentioned. And I didn’t even think about using masking tape.
AKA "Fast Cracking White Putty"!! It tends to form cracks as it ages (in months, not years). The Bondo Glazing Putty is a red, finishing putty with an organic based, evaporating solvent (not to be confused with the 2 part Bondo used for larger car body repairs), and since it is made for covering minor automobile body blemishes, stands up much better to time & temperature differences than Squadron White. Another excellent & similar product is Nitro Stan finishing putty, but that is a bit more difficult to track down (Auto Body shops have it, not general auto supply stores, which do usually carry Bondo Glazing putty). The tape simply keeps it from getting all over the place, limiting your finishing sanding & polishing to the area immediately around the gap.

Here's a photo of a 1/350 scale model I am working on of a Chinese SSN. It had a noticeable horizontal seam, as well as seams where the rudders attached to the body at an angle. I laid tape on either side of these seams and then hit them with Bondo Glazing putty. After overnight drying, I removed the tape & wet sanded (400, 600 & 1000 grade) to blend.
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As far as the limber hole problem, the reason I recommended a half cylinder (as opposed to Scott's vertical wall) is that the actual structure is the pressure hull, a cylinder that extends up into the area just below the upper deck superstructure. Here are fleet boat cross sections showing both the outer hull & inner pressure hull:

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Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Postby rdutnell » Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:57 pm

UPDATE 29

Hi Guys,

Thanks once again for the input! I really appreciate it!

I’m definitely not going to use the "Fast Cracking White Putty". I hope this doesn’t mean that the aft gun sponson I made out of it for my Bennington is going to crack. Anyway, I will be picking up some Bondo Glazing Putty this afternoon.

I fixed the limber hole problem, using the plans to do it. The image below shows a porrtion of the “Body Plan Outer Hull” plan sheet, with my frame tracings. The plans also show the pressure hull outline, so I simply created small wedges at a few sections by tracing the plan lines. I started with Part 2, because Part 1 didn’t need it.

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After I made the wedges, I copied them to the correct locations…

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…And rotated them 90 degrees.

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Before lofting the sections, I scaled them to 95% so they wouldn’t protrude from the sides. In the image below you can see what I mean. Even with it scaled 95%, I had to change the loft setting from smooth to ruled to prevent the protrusion. I then copied the sections down, out of the way, scaled them again, this time at80%, and lofted them

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I then moved the lower shape up into position and subtracted it.

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The resulting arc shape was sliced off and then joined to the hull.

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For Part 3 I first copied the aft two shapes from Part 2 onto the drawing, then repeated the process described above for 3 additional sections.

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Parts 4-7 were easy since they were straight. Each time I copied the aft section shapes from the preceding part and copied it the forward edge of the part I was working on.

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Rather than working “in the model”, I did the lofting and subtracting below. I also trimmed the bottom of the shape so they wouldn’t extend down as far. This gave better mating with the hull on the inside.

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I then moved them and joined them. Part 8, the last part modified, required tracing a couple of extra frame sections but other than that it was the same process. The resulting parts are shown below.

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CHEERS!!!
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Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Postby rdutnell » Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:09 pm

Good Evening Everybody!

I’ve been looking at numerous pictures trying to decide what to do next and in the process I found another cool picture, on Tom’s Photobucket site (Again, AWESOME STUFF Tom!). It shows the aft end of the fairwater. What makes it cool is that it looks like you can see a progression of the shape. It looks like it may have started with the jog shape that is shown on the Pampanito plans, as you can see what looks like what may be a seam. Then it looks like they filled in the notch. You can even see the rounded edge from this mod. Finally, they extended it what looks to be a foot or so. Pretty cool stuff!

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I also have a question regarding the picture. The opening below the SD mast looks to be a hatch minus the hatch. Is that correct?

On another note, I finished reading Silent Victory and really enjoyed it. If you are reading this, I would highly recommend it, because you are obviously interested in submarines and fleet boats in particular. It is really fascinating reading. Now I need to find another good one for my upcoming train trip to St. Louis the first of May. Any suggestions?

Russ
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Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Postby salmon » Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:32 pm

Yes, missing hatch door. Not sure the status of it.

Silent Victory, I read that in 1973. It was from a book club I was part of and came in two volumes. As a 13 year old it seemed like a daunting book to read, but once I got into it, it was not long enough.
If you can cut, drill, saw, hit things and swear a lot, you're well on the way to building a working model sub.
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Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Postby rdutnell » Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:55 am

UPDATE 30

Greetings All!

Tom, when I finally get over to see Batfish, I will have to check on the missing hatch door. If I find anything out I will let you know. I had the same thoughts about the book when I received it, and I’m a wee bit past 13.

Using the photo from my last post and the one below, I decided to make what I at first glance thought was a light, but now I don’t know what the heck is.

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Whatever it is, I made it and here’s how I did it…

I started in profile view (or elevation for you architectural types) trying to get the sizing and locations of both the unknown (to me) object and the hatch opening more or less correct, as best I could from the pictures.

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The unknown knob object was created using circles lines and an arc. The small circle on top in the image below has a radius of 0.06’, which at 1/144 scale is 0.005”, the limit of the SLA that will hopefully one day print this model. It is not possible to print the hole in the end, as shown in the pictures, so I didn’t include it.

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At this point lofted between the lower circles and revolved the arc around the center axis. I made the base longer than it needed to be, so I added another circle (blue) at 0.06’, as a guide when I attach it to the bridge bulkhead.

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Next, I used the projectgeometry command to project a circle onto the bulkhead and drew lines between the quadrants.

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The reason for the lines may be seen in the next image. The object has been moved to the center of the crossing lines and you can see in the image, which has been rotated for easier visualization, that the object is skewed relative to the bulkhead surface.

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So I rotated it using the lines I drew earlier.

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The end result looks pretty good I think.

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I turned my attention next to the access hatch.

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Tom’s awesome photo collection of Batfish also includes good shots of the starboard side of the bridge, and the image below, that I have cropped, you can see another hatch/plate/door/cover(?) that appears to be the same as the one on the port side. I assumed that it was, and rather than cut a hole as in the museum display, where Tom took the pix, I opted to turn it into a 0.06’ plate protruding from the bulkhead. Although I failed to document the process, I lofted the outline probably about 0.01’ and then stuck it into the bulkhead so that 0.06’ was protruding.

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More will likely follow shortly, as I am on a roll. Who needs sleep?
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Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Postby rdutnell » Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:48 am

UPDATE 31

I warned you that there would probably be more, and I wasn’t lying. Since I had the hatch door on my mind, I went ahead and did the one on the starboard side, and since there was a square access panel below it, I did it too.

I started by mirroring the hatch outline and moving it into position, again based on eyeballing the pix. I then drew the outline of the square access panel and reference lines on both outlines.

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Like before, I then used project geometry to project the outlines and the reference lines to the bulkhead.

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Next, I moved the outlines and guidelines to the surface using the projected lines midpoints, and rotated them.

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Focusing on the hatch door first, I copied the outline out a bit, lofted between the two outlines and then drew a reference line 0.06’ in from the outer edge…

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…And moved it all into the bulkhead until the yellow reference line was just on the surface.

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I then did the same for the lower access plate.

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OK, I guess I do need some sleep.

Hasta Manana!
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Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Postby rdutnell » Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:21 am

UPDATE 32

Good Morning Everybody!

I thought I would do a little modeling before I start on the daunting task of doing my tax return. Ugh!

Continuing on the bridge, I used Tom’s great photos again to make the gun access hatch and whatever that object aft is. Below is the main picture I used for the design. It has been cropped from the original.

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Like always, I started by drawing the outlines of the two objects, and positioning them as best I could from pictures.

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I started with the unknown object, drawing the lines I needed to make the desired shape.

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I then lofted the base (green) and the outer part of object (yellow)…

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…And lofted the yellow part to create the opening seen in the pictures.

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Next, I used the projectgeometry command to project the outline onto the bridge bulkhead…

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...Prepared the object for moving by drawing my guidelines…

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…And moved it into position. Note the yellow, vertical guide line is just at the surface of the bulkhead.

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I then joined it to the bridge. I thought I was finished at this point.

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Later, I decided to cut a hole through the bulkhead, because it seems that is what the unknown object does in the pictures I have.

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I started by copying the top rectangle down to the base, and changing the color to yellow for easier viewing.

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I then stretched the new rectangle to match the interior edges of the object on the base plate, extruded it …

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…And subtracted it.

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At this point, I shifted my attention to the gun access hatch, beginning with using the project geometry command to project the hatch onto the bulkhead.

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I then moved the shape onto the surface and rotated so that it was aligned properly…

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…Lofted it through the bulkhead…

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…And subtracted it.

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At this point I wasn’t sure what the hatches looked like during action. In the museum, it is open, as it is in a picture I have of Balaos “Bridge Up” Memorial (wherever it is). Some pictures I have seen of Lionfish also are open with rounded edges. But, I am not sure if this, so I made a copy and rounded the edges on one and left them on the other. The images below show the hatch with rounded edges.

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Since I am unsure if the hatch was open or closed I will do future work on the one without the rounded edges, as this will allow me to add a hatch door or round the edges when I learn more.

Now for my taxes. Ugh again!
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Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Postby Tom Dougherty » Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:01 am

Russell,
Here are some shots of the Lionfish (SS-298) hatch opening. It is rounded off on this boat. I am sure the grating door over it is not "original equipment".

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I believe this might be an opening for passing ammunition, but I am going through my photos of the interior to see if I can find a hatch in the forward part of the control room that corresponds to this opening.
On Gatos, there was often a permanent opening on one side of the rear fairwater structure, and this was also to allow the Main Induction for the diesels to "breath". On Balaos, the Main Induction could obtain air through the screened openings in the periscope lower shears, seen here:

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This minimized the possibility of the Main Induction "inhaling" water in rough seas.

BTW, the circular horizontal compartments on front to the starboard forward fairwater, as well as the two horizontal tube extensions at the rear of the fairwater, port & starboard, are waterproof "ready ammo" lockers for the deck guns. These contained several rounds of ammunition to allow quick gun action upon surfacing; additional rounds would then be brought up from the ammo locker below.
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Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Postby rdutnell » Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:57 pm

UPDATE 33 – 4/13/2013

Well Guys, I at least bought TurboTax, so that’s a step in the right direction, right?

Once again Tom, I thank you for all of your input. It has been a big help in this effort, as will the latest pictures you sent. If nothing else, they have answered my immediate question about the hatch. Rounded it is… without the grating.

Your last post has me a bit stumped though, with regards to terminology. I thought that the fairwater was the u-shaped bit on top of the bridge. Do I have it backwards or am I totally wrong? I think that I have the conning tower right, and I’ve learned that what I have been calling the periscope masts are really called periscope shears, but I’m confused about what is the bridge and what is the fairwater.

The picture of the Main induction breathers will come in handy and it is going to be nice to know what the heck I’m making, as I knew there were holes, but I didn’t know what they were. The info on the “ready ammo” lockers is interesting, and I wondered what they were. It looks like Batfish had at least the forward locker at one time, but it appears to have been removed at some point. It certainly isn’t on Tom’s pictures. Do you suppose they were removed after the war, or during one of her mod’s?

Whatever the case, I continued on the bridge/fairwater bulkhead detailing, next adding more unknown (to me) objects that appear to be vents of some sort. Whatever they are, they are located just forward of the hatch on the port side, as can be seen in the first picture in Update 32.

I started by drawing construction lines showing where the features are located.

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I then used the projectgeometry command to project these guidelines on to the curve surface of the bulkhead.

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I then drew an arc on the top projected guideline, connected the ends with a line and joined them to form a polyline…

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…Which I then copied in and up…

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…And lofted them.

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Next, I copied the lofted shape to the other locations the object is seen to be in photographs…

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…And joined them to the bulkhead.

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Next I prepare to add another unknown (to me) detail, the hole in the front of the bridge or fairwater bulkhead. This involved drawing two concentric circles at the correct location…

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…And extruding the circles.

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I then subtracted the inner yellow circle shape from both the red circle shape and the bulkhead and filleted the edge of the inside circle to match the shape seen in pictures.

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It was about this time that I read Tom’s post and rounded the hatch edges. They are rounded with a radius of 0.16’. I wanted to round them more (i.e., increase the radius) but AutoCad wouldn’t do it any larger. It can always be sanded by hand if it looks like it needs it when the model is printed.

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Working around to the starboard side I added yet another unknown (to me) object that appears to be some sort of valve. I based the design on two more Batfish pictures of Tom’s, which are shown below.

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The first steps as always were to position the object and draw the main outline.

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In this case the shape was drawn using two circles that were then connected by lines tangent to them.

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The unneeded lines were trimmed and the remaining lines joined to form a polyline.

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I then lofted the shape through the bulkhead surface. I at first lofted all the way through, but I later filled the back portion using the same shape to create a recessed area, rather than a hole.

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At this point I had to use a little modeler’s license and ad lib a bit to make the valves seen in the pictures. The smallest significant (from a modeling perspective) item in the pictures is the valve handle, which appears to be maybe 1” in diameter. Remember, the SLA printer is limited to a diameter of 0.010”, which at 1/144 scale would equate to 1.44” real scale. The image below shows the parts I made to fit into the recess. The blue “handle” and red cylinder are as small as I could make them. I then used a combination of various sizes of hexagons and circles to approximate the items seen in the photos, and I mean approximate.

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When joined to the recess and recolored, it looked pretty decent, though not perfect by any means.

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After looking at it a bit I decided to make the handles a little bit longer, although they still look a little squatty.

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Still, I think they will work, especially when seen in the grand scheme of things.

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CHEERS!!!
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Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Postby rdutnell » Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:44 am

UPDATE 34

Well, just when I thought I was finished detailing the sides of what I have wrongly been calling the bridge but I think is actually the fairwater conning tower (and what I have been calling the fairwater is actually the bridge), I got a wild hair. In the picture below, which is cropped from one of Tom’s excellent pictures, you can see what I think is a gun access trunk.

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Since it is a fairly prominent feature it seemed to me that the model would be lacking if it didn’t include it. I considered making it a separate part, but the model bulkheads are too wide to allow this, so I decided to make it part of the piece that I have been working on, that I will henceforth call the fairwater, unless I find out that I am still screwed up.

Anyway, relying solely on the photo above, and having never seen one, here’s what I did to make it.

It looked to me like the main structure of the trunk was a sphere, so I drew a sphere inside the fairwater and moved it and sized it until I thought it looked right. I then copied the sphere to the side, out of the way, so that I could more easily see what I was doing for the rest of the process.

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I first hollowed the sphere using the shell command, to reduce material use then sliced the bottom off at deck level

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There appears to be a flange near the top of the sphere where the structure seems to transition to a tubular shape. So, the next thing I did was make a flange with 32 bolts.

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I kind of got ahead of myself and didn’t document it, but I tapered the top down to another flange with 24 bolts, then went straight a short distance to another 24 bolt flange, and then went straight high enough to intercept the underside of the deck. I then added the valve seen in the picture.

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At this point I deleted the sphere inside the fairwater, and moved the completed assembly inside.

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I recolored it at this point, but have not joined it to the piece in case I need to change it.

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Adding the trunk to the piece really made for an interesting part, as can be seen in the image below showing a view from underneath.

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I made one more modification to the part, and that was to the object aft of the hatch. The more I looked at the one I made, the more I thought it seemed too small. When I scaled it on a photo, relative to the hatch, mine was indeed too small, so I sliced it off, scaled it up in size, reattached it and remade the opening through the bulkhead. I think that it looks better.

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So, I guess I will install TurboTax now so I will be ready to knock it out later this morning.

CHEERS!!!
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Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Postby Tom Dougherty » Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:49 pm

I decided to make what I at first glance thought was a light, but now I don’t know what the heck is.

That object is the antenna lead insulator. If you look at this picture of Bowfin, you can see the antenna wires that stretch forward to the T frame at the bow.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/0828726.jpg
The antenna wires were connected through the insulated lead to the radio.
Here's another shot (click for hi res) and you can see the wire leads connecting to the antenna lead, just above and to the right of the "5".
http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/0830522.jpg

OK, conning tower, fairwater, bridge. First, the conning tower is a pressure resistant cylinder that sits on top of the main pressure hull. It is a smaller version of the main pressure hull. It is the location from which submerged attacks were conducted in WWII. It contains the two periscopes, the Torpedo Data Computer, some sonar, additional electronics, and a steering station. In diagrams, it is the smaller cylinder, which is normally NOT VISIBLE, because it is surrounded by the streamlined structure known as: the Fairwater!

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Here is a "naked" conning tower with no fairwater surround:
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It is located and accessed from a (watertight) hatch in the control room, and has another (watertight) hatch that leads up to the bridge.
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The bridge is the location from which the submarine is conned when on the surface. It is at the forward part of the fairwater. Orders are relayed below through a bridge speaker (large black object), and the hatch down to the conning tower is also visible. Also prominent is the Target Bearing Transmitter (TBT) with its optical system, a pitometer, and other pieces of equipment (black objects) are also at the bridge station.
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Modern US submarines do not have a conning tower, and have much more streamlined "sails" which house the various masts. Without the need to house a pressure resistant structure, the sails are much narrower and compact. All ship steering, ballast, navigation & attack functions are now centralized in the control room inside the pressure hull.

When the fleet subs were converted to Guppy configuration post WWII, the fairwaters were streamlined to reduce underwater drag. The conning towers were still underneath the new fairwaters (which were called sails), and still employed as the attack center. Most US nuclear submarines were built without conning towers under their sails. (Sub Quiz Question: the two early nuclear sub exceptions to this were?)
Last edited by Tom Dougherty on Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Postby rdutnell » Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:53 pm

UPDATE 35

Hi Everybody!

Can you say procrastination? Well, that’s what I’m doing. After all, it’s not due until tomorrow, right?

In the meantime, I decided to start detailing the SD mast. To begin this process, I first created a separate file for making the ladder rungs (grabs I think they call them). Once again, my design is based on photographs of Tom’s, in particular the one shown below. There were a couple of others too, but this is the best one.

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Because of the somewhat odd shape of the rungs, I did it in two (actually three) parts. I started with the outside part of the rung, first drawing a 3 sided polyline and then filleting it at 0.06’ (0.005” at 1/144 scale). I then drew a 0.12’ diameter circle (It’s a fat rung) on one of the ends, copied it to the other end and rotated one of them 90 degrees.

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Next, I extruded the circle using the polyline as the path.

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I then rotated the axis 90 degrees, rotated the viewing angle and drew a 2 sided polyline that I again filleted at 0.06’.

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I then extruded the circle I hadn’t rotated along the polyline…

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…Mirrored it to the other side…

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…And joined the three parts.

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Next I opened the SDMast drawing and copied the rung into place. However, when I did this I realized that the rung was too big. I had made it 1’ wide, and intentionally made the “arms” too long, but they were too long, so I diced and sliced the rung to 9” wide, and shortened the other dimensions as well.

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I then copied the rung onto the SDMast drawing at the location of the lowest rung, and copied it again to the other 7 rung locations.

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Next, I moved the rungs, one by one, into the mast, using guidelines I created so they would all be protruding the same amount.

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The last thing I did was change the color.

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As with the gun access trunk, I have not attached them yet, in case I need to change them. What do you think? Do they look OK, or do you think I need to modify anything before I join them?

Now, I really do need to do my taxes. Oh and thanks Tom, I just saw your last post. I will look at it in more detail and respond to it later. Thanks!

CHEERS!
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Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Postby salmon » Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:02 pm

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Looking into the access door

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We can also see the conning tower proper.

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If you can cut, drill, saw, hit things and swear a lot, you're well on the way to building a working model sub.
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Re: 1/144 Scale USS Batfish (SS310)

Postby rdutnell » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:23 am

Hi Guys,

I don’t have anything new to report yet, but I thought I would respond to your latest posts.

Starting with Tom D.’s post…

Muchos gracias for the info on the antenna lead insulator. I had seen diagrams and photos of the antennas, but wasn’t sure how they were connected, so you answered two questions for me.

Also, I think you may have finally got me straightened out with regards to the conning tower, fairwater and bridge. (“I’m just trying to find the bridge. Has anybody seen the bridge? I ain’t seen the bridge! Where’s that confounded bridge?”) What I had been calling the conning tower is really the lower part of the periscope shears. What I initially called the bridge is the fairwater, and the u-shaped object that I had originally called the fairwater is the bridge. You can only see the conning tower by looking through the gun access hatch, as shown in the pictures in Tom’s (Salmon’s) post. I really like the Inboard Profile clip top. I had seen one before, but not SEEN it. This picture makes more since and really explains the seriousness of the incidents described in Silent Victory where the hatch had been left open when diving, thus flooding the conning tower. IKES!!!

I’m still not sure why you would want to con a submarine. Are they gullible with a lot of money, or something? Seriously though, I had never heard that term before with regards to submarines, now the name “conning tower” makes more since too.

The pictures you posted of the bridge Tom D., are great! You sent these to me before, but now, thanks to your descriptions I know what some of the stuff is. Also, your description of the evolution to the sail is appreciated. It seems like I had read something about this before, but I think I will flunk the quiz. I have no idea what two nuclear submarines had conning towers. Does anybody else out there know?

Thanks Tom for the pix of the gun trunk and conning tower looking through the hatch. I knew that you could probably see something through that door looking aft too, and I suspected that I didn’t have the trunk right, which is why I didn’t attach it. I guess I learned something. If I’m uncertain about something, I should ask first. Then, if I’m still not sure, wait until I go see the boat myself.

Thanks Guys!!!
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