Banner Ad 1

USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

This is the place to post your submarine build- ups.

Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby salmon » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:20 am

What a fun trip that was! As I look at your sections, did you put in an index key for alignment of the hull pieces?
Thank you for this build, like you, the next week or two will not come soon enough. Look forward to the end result.
If you can cut, drill, saw, hit things and swear a lot, you're well on the way to building a working model sub.
User avatar
salmon
SubCommittee Member
 
Posts: 533
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:35 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:03 pm

UPDATE 33

Hi All!

Thanks salmon. I am glad you enjoyed it. I posted this log for 2 reasons. The first is because I know how much I enjoy following (or even reading after the fact) a build log. It is always interesting to see how people address the various issues that arise during a build, of which there are usually several. The other reason is perhaps somewhat selfish, and that is the input you receive when you post. I personally have absolutely NO experience with submarines, or ships of any kind for that matter. As I have said before, perhaps on another forum, the largest ship I have been on is one of the ferries in San Francisco and I think that was more of a large boat and hardly qualified as a ship.

I couldn’t have built this model of Greenling had I not posted. The idea to scratch build Greenling in fact came as a result of plans I received in response to a posting I put on ModelWarships.

This brings me to something I wanted to say in my last posts, but after staying up all night to finish the model, was too tired to add. That is:
I want to thank everyone who has led me through this adventure to this point by providing the information and support needed at every step along the way. Special thanks to Tom Dougherty who opened Pandora’s box by providing the plans without which this project would not be and provided numerous pictures and answers to my unending questions. Joel, who’s wonderful Jack model provided both inspiration and guidance, also provided numerous photos and answers, for which I am grateful. Bill, salmon, Jacob and Scott also aided me on this journey. THANK YOU ALL!!!

The journey though, has really just begun. We’ve made it to base camp, but it’s still a long way to go to the top, and then we’ve got to get back down safely. The parts haven’t even been made yet, and being an engineer, I am all too aware that Murphy can raise his ugly head at any time, and in fact would be naïve to think that with 27 pieces there won’t be an issue somewhere. I mean the test parts had no surface detail, and as it turns out, the Detail test piece (and RAM launcher) have not been made, so, I really have no idea how they will turn out. I think that the question is how many there will be, and how difficult they will be to fix. Then there is the build itself, which I’m sure will offer another set of obstacles to overcome, and I will both be sharing it and asking for help.

As for your question about index keys salmon, the answer is yes, I did include them.
Image
I didn’t put an ID key to tell which way is up, because I figured that this would be pretty obvious due to the waterline and other etched features.
As long as I’m here, I might as well show you some images of the “painted” ship.
Enjoy!
Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

I don’t know when my next post will be. It may be a while, but I’ll let you know when I know anything different.

CHEERS!!!
rdutnell
SubCommittee Member
 
Posts: 388
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:03 pm
Location: Norman, Oklahoma

Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby JWLaRue » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:18 pm

Russell,

I too have enjoyed watching your progress with this part of your build. I'm a big fan of the combination of CAD & 3D printing and how it can be used in our hobby for making both those pesky fine detailed parts as well as the larger structures like the hull.

Once you get the boat printed (or in your case - grown) for your friend, will you be getting one for yourself and going to the next step of making it a running r/c model?

-tnx,

Jeff

p.s. while you are waiting for the parts, would you consider writing an article for the SubCommittee Report? I think there is a lot of interest in this technology and you could help explain to folks how to get started and some of the pitfalls.
Rohr 1.....Los!
User avatar
JWLaRue
SubCommittee Member
 
Posts: 3882
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 1994 6:00 pm
Location: Annapolis, MD

Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:09 am

Good Morning All,

Jeff:

I'm glad that you have enjoyed watching the build thus far. It certainly has been an enjoyable experience doing it. I can see doing it again for sure. In fact, I'm already considering starting over with the plans and building little 1/700 scale or even 1/1200 scale as one complete part, and doing all of the subs in the class.

I have no interest at this point in getting into R/C, regardless of the mode of transportation; planes, train, automobiles, ships or subs. If I ever did get in to it, it would probably be in aircraft. When I was a kid we flew those tehthered ones in endless circles. We even tied streamers to the ends and had dog fights like the Cadets at the USAFA did at half time of the football games, when they weren't flying their various beautiful falcons. (My dad taught in the Math department and coached on the Freshmen football team at the AFA for 5 years. Great time in life) So if I was to decide to do R/C it would probably be an F4U corsair. Or perhaps a helicopter with a camera so I could fly them up the creeks I'm assessing. Anyway, I don't foresee building an R/C out of the model.

I am however giving some thought to casting it, as several people have suggested it. Of course, I don't know s**t from shinola when it comes to casting, so I would definitely need some outside input, first to see if it is even possible, and then to help me do it as well. I have already received a PM from a ModelWarship member telling me that he could put me in contact with some "master resin casters" and I think I am going to tak him up on his offer.

As for the article, I would be happy to write an article for the SubCommittee Report. PM me or e-mail me a little more info about what you want and I will see what I can do.

CHEERS!
rdutnell
SubCommittee Member
 
Posts: 388
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:03 pm
Location: Norman, Oklahoma

Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:39 pm

JWLaRue wrote:...Once you get the boat printed (or in your case - grown) for your friend, will you be getting one for yourself and going to the next step of making it a running r/c model? Jeff


I might have been a bit premature to write off RC as calously as I did. I was looking at the Subcommittee report and it really looks cool. I see the appeal in having a model you built sailing around on a pond or pool.

Out of curiosity, what would be a ballpark amount I could expect to spend in hardware if I decided to make an RC version in 1/144 scale?
rdutnell
SubCommittee Member
 
Posts: 388
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:03 pm
Location: Norman, Oklahoma

Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby JWLaRue » Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:59 pm

Hi Russ,

...ahh, you've possibly caught the r/c sub bug, eh? :)

Your question doesn't have an easy or single answer. The dive module for a boat of your size will vary depending on how much of it you want to construct yourself. There are some items that you'll need to purchase regardless, such as: servos and radio. (Just about) everything else can be made from common materials like plastic sheet/tube/etc. Going that route, we're talking about a cost (not including the radio & servos) of tens of dollars. At the other end of the spectrum would be dive modules that are ARF (almost ready to float) where you just drop in servos and radio. Those run in the neighborhood of several hundreds of dollars. Check out the vendors pages for some SC folks who offer these modules.

Hope that gives you some idea. Please feel free to ask any questions!

-Jeff
Rohr 1.....Los!
User avatar
JWLaRue
SubCommittee Member
 
Posts: 3882
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 1994 6:00 pm
Location: Annapolis, MD

Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:36 am

I wouldn't say that I've actually caught it yet, just feelig a little under the weather :D
The 10's of dollars sounds good, the 100's of dollars not so much, and knowing myself, that is what I would end up with.
We'll see. I have no intention of RC at this moment but man that Regatta looked like a hoot.
rdutnell
SubCommittee Member
 
Posts: 388
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:03 pm
Location: Norman, Oklahoma

Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:11 am

UPDATE 34

Hey Guys,

Nothing earth shattering to report, I just wanted to thank Jeff for asking me to write a paper for the SubCommittee Report as it prevented me from having to go cold turkey. Also, in the process of writing it and pouring over the model again, I found an alignment issue with the aft escape trunk, which as you may recall straddles parts 7 and 8. It was way out of line, so it is a good thing that my buddy went to China and that Jeff asked me to write the paper otherwise the parts would have been made wrong. As it is I was able to fix it. I also decided to drill a small hole in the top of the snorkel induction mast to accommodate a whip antenna.

Other than that my buddy has finally had time to open all of the part files I sent him and said that they all look good except for the screw. The problem with it though is that the center hole doesn’t look round, even though I know it is a circle, so I got on line and the best I can tell, it is an issue with the graphics card’s ability to display the part accurately. It is a geometrically complex shape, so I hope that’s it. In any case, we are just going to make it as is and see how it turns out.

Another thing I did in the process of writing the paper was to “take pictures” of all of the parts from various angles. There are 27 parts and many more images.

Enjoy! Maybe it will help with your cold turkey situation too! :D
Part List/Diagram
Image
Part 1 - Hull Section 1
Image
Image
Part 2 - Hull Section 2
Image
Image
Part 3 - Sail
Image
Image
Image
Part 4 - Starboard sail plane
Image
Image
Image
Part 5 - Port sail plane
Image
Image
Image
Part 6 - Hull Section 3
Image
Image
Image
Part 7 - Hull Section 4
Image
Image
Image
Part 8 - Hull Section 5
Image
Image
Image
Part 9 - Hull Section 6
Image
Image
Image
Part 10 - Hull Section 7
Image
Image
Image
Part 11 - Starboard dive plane
Image
Image
Part 12 - Port dive plane
Image
Image
Part 13 - Upper rudder
Image
Image
Image
Part 14 - Lower rudder
Image
Image
Part 15 - Screw
Image
Image
Part 16 - Dunce Cap
Image
Part 17 - Stern light
Image
Part 18 - SPM
Image
Image
Image
Part 19 - SPM Bearing
Image
Part 20 - SPM Key
Image
Part 21 - SPM Washer
Image
Part 22 - Search Periscope
Image
Part 23 - Attack Periscope
Image
Part 24 - BRA-21 Antenna
Image
Part 25 BRD-6 ECM
Image
Part 26 - Snorkel inductor
Image
Part 27 - Bow light
Image
rdutnell
SubCommittee Member
 
Posts: 388
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:03 pm
Location: Norman, Oklahoma

Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:27 am

UPDATE 35

Hey Again Guys,

I’ve got another treat for you. I was browsing the forum and found a post by TMSmalley showing how to upload videos from Photobucket and it reminded me of something I have wanted to look into. I have seen a little camera icon in AutoCad and with technology being what it is I typed “making autocad video” in Google and just as I thought, you can make movies, and I even found a little tutorial on how to do it. You simply pick a point or path for the camera to follow, and a point or path for it to aim at, and tell it how many frames per second and how long and you get a video.

I decided to try it, so for a path I drew a circle and rotated it 45 degrees so that it would pass over the bow and under the stern, as seen in the image below. For some reason, AutoCad went into horizon mode so it looks like Greenling is doing a trick at a water park and leaping through a hoop like a dolphin, but I digress.
Image
I then generated a video of the model using the ANIPATH Command with the red circle as the path and the center of the ship as the target. After a few tries experimenting with the settings, including camera angle and resolution, I created the attached video. Just click on the image and the video should start. It could be better, but I still think it's pretty cool.

Enjoy!

Image
Last edited by rdutnell on Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
rdutnell
SubCommittee Member
 
Posts: 388
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:03 pm
Location: Norman, Oklahoma

Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:45 am

UPDATE 35B

Hello Again Guys,

I thought I would give it another try. I tried an ellipse instead of a circle for the path (blue), and reduced the angle to just 2 degrees from the horizontal, and instead of having the target a point, I made it another ellipse essentially matching the ship’s shape (green).

Image
The results are much better.

Image

CHEERS!!!
rdutnell
SubCommittee Member
 
Posts: 388
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:03 pm
Location: Norman, Oklahoma

Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:00 am

Update 36

Hi once again,

I just discoverd, because my file numbering was messed up, that I had prepared a post over a week ago, that I seem to have forgotten to actually post. Here it is:

Thanks salmon. I am glad you enjoyed it. I posted this log for 2 reasons. The first is because I know how much I enjoy following (or even reading after the fact) a build log. It is always interesting to see how people address the various issues that arise during a build, of which there are usually several. The other reason is perhaps somewhat selfish, and that is the input you receive when you post. I personally have absolutely NO experience with submarines, or ships of any kind for that matter. As I have said before, perhaps on another forum, the largest ship I have been on is one of the ferries in San Francisco and I think that was more of a large boat and hardly qualified as a ship.

I couldn’t have built this model of Greenling had I not posted. The idea to scratch build Greenling in fact came as a result of plans I received in response to a posting I put on ModelWarships.

This brings me to something I wanted to say in my last posts, but after staying up all night to finish the model, was too tired to add. That is:
I want to thank everyone who has led me through this adventure to this point by providing the information and support needed at every step along the way. Special thanks to Tom Dougherty who opened Pandora’s box by providing the plans without which this project would not be and provided numerous pictures and answers to my unending questions. Joel, who’s wonderful Jack model provided both inspiration and guidance, also provided numerous photos and answers, for which I am grateful. Bill, salmon, Jacob and Scott also aided me on this journey.

THANK YOU ALL!!!

The journey though, has really just begun. We’ve made it to base camp, but it’s still a long way to go to the top, and then we’ve got to get back down safely. The parts haven’t even been made yet, and being an engineer, I am all too aware that Murphy can raise his ugly head at any time, and in fact would be naïve to think that with 27 pieces there won’t be an issue somewhere. I mean the test parts had no surface detail, and as it turns out, the Detail test piece (and RAM launcher) have not been made, so, I really have no idea how they will turn out. I think that the question is how many there will be, and how difficult they will be to fix. Then there is the build itself, which I’m sure will offer another set of obstacles to overcome, and I will both be sharing it and asking for help.

As for your question about index keys salmon, the answer is yes, I did include them.

Image

I didn’t put an ID key to tell which way is up, because I figured that this would be pretty obvious due to the waterline and other etched features.
As long as I’m here, I might as well show you some images of the “painted” ship.

Enjoy!
Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
rdutnell
SubCommittee Member
 
Posts: 388
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:03 pm
Location: Norman, Oklahoma

Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:14 pm

UPDATE 37

Nothing to report on the Greenling model. I haven’t heard from my buddy in several days and am not sure when he returns from China. I found a good way to fill the time though.

Some of you may recall that, before I decided to build Greenling in AutoCad, I found a print (see below) of all of the Permit class submarines, and considered replicating it in 3-D with 1/700 scale models. Since I didn’t have anything going this weekend, I decided to make it in AutoCad.
Image
For no particular reason, I decided to build Jack’s double screw first. From images that I have seen, mostly on models, the forward screw was a seven bladed propeller similar to the single screw I made for Greenling, but the hub is more or less flat, instead of angled. The aft screw, contrary to what I first thought, had only 6 blades, although their shape seemed to be roughly the same as the 7 screw blades. I consider myself fortunate to have discovered this, because I had looked at screw pictures numerous times before I noticed it.
The images below show the process I followed to make the screw. In the first image, the screw I made for Greenling is in the middle (rescaled for 1/700). The screw on the left is a copy the middle screw with a constant width hub joined to it. The screw on the right is a mirror image of the middle screw.
Image
The fact that the aft screw only had 6 blades complicated matters somewhat. To make it, I started by making a hub, using the center hub as a template. This was easy. Two lofted circles did the trick, as you can see on the left side of the figure below. I used this hub for two things. First, I copied it and used it to remove the blades by subtracting it from the mirrored screw. I then attached the blades to it after they were completed. The right side of the figure below shows the 6 blades attached to the hub.
Image
The images below show the making of the screw blades. I cut off all but one and then Rotate/Copied it at 60 degrees intervals. The image on the far right shows the completed aft screw.
Image
Another view of the completed screw.
Image
The image below shows the two screws oriented properly. The spacing is needed for the model to be the right length.
Image
The next images show the space filled and the double screw completed.
Image
Having completed the double screw, I started on the ships themselves, which meant starting over from scratch. I made two different hulls, a short one, and a long one. I assumed that Jack had a long hull, and that the extra length was in the screw, and looking at the size of the space I had to include, I think that it was a good assumption. You may be wondering why I didn’t just make a short hull since I have already built a long hull. Well, there are two reasons. The first is scale as much of the detailing would, I fear, be too small for the SLA to make. I was pushing the limits in many places as it is. The second is that for some reason, I didn’t seem to keep an un-etched version. In any event, it’s fun and I’m definitely getting better and faster at it.

After lofting the hulls into shape, the next thing I did was the rudders, which like the diving planes are similar on all of the submarines in the class (I think. That’s the way I made them anyway). The images below show the rudders, which were made by tracing the foils provided on the plans with lines, arcs, and ellipses, positioning them as shown on the plans and lofting them together. The fact that they are going to be attached to the hull simplified making the rudder because I could just extrude it into the hull. I “painted” the upper rudder black and the lower rudder a shade of red.
Image
The next image shows the completed rudders on the four different hull/sail configurations; short hull with small sail, short hull with large sail, long hull with large sail, and long hull with small sail and double screw. You can also see the diving planes I was preparing to do next.
Image
The next group of images shows the making of the diving planes. Unfortunately, it doesn’t show the foils that I extruded to make the sails, but you can see how I could extend the nose and not have to worry about slicing it because it was going to be joined to the hull anyway. The bottom two images show the completed planes (I really only made one and used the MIRROR Command to make the second one). The one on the left shows the rudders before they were rotated into position and the one on the left shows them after rotation.
Image
In the images below you can see the copying of the diving planes to the four hulls. Note that I used the end of the hull, beginning of screw as my reference point rather than the end of the screw as I did with Greenling.
Image
Next were the sails. Since I had the shapes to do the large one (fortunately they didn’t get lost), I started with it first, as seen in the images below. The body of the sail was easy, two of the same sized foils, lofted together, the top not so much.
Image
I tried a couple of different methods that I didn’t like before opting to construct it out of ellipses, turned sideways and extruded. The two images below show completion of the sail top.
Image
Next were the sail planes, as shown in the next few images. The first one shows the foil sections used to create the plane prior t o them being rotated and lofted. The second images shows the result after lofting, the third after creating a mirror image of the plane, and the fourth image shows the planes rotated to fit onto the sail. Once again, since the planes aren’t to be moveable, I could make them overly long and simply use the UNION Command to join them.
Image
The next couple of images show the sailplanes attached to the sail. Following is an image of the four configurations of the class showing the sail on the long hulls.
Image
Having completed the large sail, it was time to start on the shorter sail. In the images below, the first image shows the island and the 3 arc segments I used to create the section. The green one on the right started as an ellipse that I trimmed. The other two were created using 3-point arcs. The second image shows the shape after I mirrored the 3 segments and joined them. The next image shows the section copied onto the side view of the shorter sail, and the fourth image shows the sail after the sections were rotated and lofted.
Image
In the next series of images you can see how I did the top. Starting with the top left image you can see the line I drew from the center line, perpendicular to the top and perpendicular to the bulkheads. The top right image shows the ellipses I drew using these lines and intersection points to define. The middle images show the top lofted and then joined with the lower part of the sail and recolored. The lower two images show the sail plane construction. Note the extra section added internal to the sail. This was needed to assure that the aft end of the plane was not sticking out.
Image
Completion of the sail plane is shown in the next group of images using the methods previously described for the larger sail planes.
Image
The next image shows the four hull configurations with the sails completed.
Image
In order to mount them to the base I drilled 1/8” holes in the port side, as may be seen in the following image.
Image
And of course, I had to paint them.
Image
With the 4 hull configurations complete, I turned my attention to the frame. The bottom will be a 12” x 17.2” piece of ¼” dark walnut, or some other suitable wood. I used the Box Command to make it in AutoCad. For the sides I plan to use ½” x 1-¼” dark walnut. The outside dimensions of the frame will be 12.5” x 17.7”, and the top edges of the walnut will be routered with a 1/8” diameter bit. In AutoCad I first made a box ½” x 1-¼” x 12.5” and copied it, then made another box, this one ½” x 1-¼” x 17.7”, turned 90 degrees from the other boxes. I then positioned them correctly and joined them together. After routering the edges by filleting them with 0.125” radii, I joined the frame to the base.

When I was originally considering making this, I got on-line and downloaded images of all of the ship’s patches, gold and silver dolphins, and the American flag. I import these into AutoCad and moved them to the proper locations. I then typed in the text, including the Title, some ship details, the ship names and the scale. The final images show the completed display.

Image

Image

Image

Image
This was a fun little side trip, even though it may not ever get built. It all depends on if I wear out my welcome on Greenling. If I don’t and my buddy is still willing and able to make parts for me I will probably have him make these little guys, as well as a couple of other little projects I have in mind.

If I do get to build it, the first thing I will do is revisit the models. So far, I have just the bare hull, sail, planes and rudders with no detailing. Looking at the 1/700 OKB Grigorov Thresher model I have, and using my handy little Micro-mike, I measured some of the detailing features and found them to be between 0.005” wide and 0.01”wide. So, there is a good chance that I will be adding detailing to the two hulls if I get to build it. I would probably add masts as well, and may even modernize some of them by adding the towed array fairing.

As for the graphics and text, there are multiple options. The easiest and cheapest way would be to make decals out of the text, and print the graphics on photograph paper and then attach them by laminating them between layers of Future, which from my experience looks really nice. Another option would be to go all out and take all of the text and graphics to my local trophy shop and have them all printed on brass. Now that would look classy! Of course no matter how I do it, I will include a glass cover on the front, and mounting brackets of some sort on the back.

CHEERS!!!
rdutnell
SubCommittee Member
 
Posts: 388
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:03 pm
Location: Norman, Oklahoma

Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby Vepr » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:37 pm

Excellent work so far! I was wondering where you got the information on the Jack's screws. I have been looking for some time for pictures and details relating to her screws, but I haven't found anything yet.

Jacob
Under Construction
1/350 Yasen
1/350 Delta IV
1/350 Oscar II
1/350 Skipjack
1/350 Sturgeon
1/350 Permit
1/350 Flight I Los Angeles
1/350 Flight III Los Angeles
1/72 Type VIIC
Vepr
Registered User
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:10 pm

Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:48 pm

Thanks Jacob!

As for the screws, I basically used the screw details provided in Joel's excellent Jack model build thread posted on 12/31/2008:

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=8081&start=75

Right or wrong, I essentially used the same screw as I made for Greenling for the forward screw, and for the aft screw I used the same blade design, but with six blades as shown in Joel's post.

If you ever do find a good picture of it, please share it, because I would love to see it to see how close (or how far off) my model is to the real thing.

CHEERS!!!
rdutnell
SubCommittee Member
 
Posts: 388
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:03 pm
Location: Norman, Oklahoma

Jack's screws

Postby Tom Dougherty » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:37 pm

As they are currently at the Albacore museum...
Image
Rear screw with forward screw in background
Image
Forward screw
Image
Forward screw
Image
Rear screw
Last edited by Tom Dougherty on Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tom Dougherty
Researcher for Project Azorian
Project Azorian Documentary: http://www.projectjennifer.at/
Project Azorian Book: http://www.usni.org/store/catalog-fall-2012/project-azorian
Image
Tom Dougherty
SubCommittee Member
 
Posts: 942
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:39 pm
Location: Ayer, Ma

PreviousNext

Return to Builder Threads

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot]