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USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

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Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:05 pm

Excellent!!!
Love the lesson in submarine architectural history.

THANKS!!!
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Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:22 am

UPDATE 26

Well Guys,
I’ve started on the top of the sail. Since I quickly discovered that the light was wrong and that I needed to redo it, I started there. If you think adding stuff is hard, taking stuff off is way harder, at least with my knowledge of AutoCad. I decided the easiest way to do it would be to simply slice off the top on the current model and one I have from before I did anything to it. (It is always wise to save and rename so that you have the model at various stages along the way, in case you mess up, which I seem to do a lot.) I could then cut and paste the old one in place of the discarded wrongly modified one.

That’s what I did, but man it was a bee-otch. It didn’t want to slice, no matter what I did. After trying numerous ways of doing it, I finally tried just lowering the cut surface a fraction of a fraction of an inch and tada it worked. I figure since I was trying to cut on the original join line, where I joined the top and bottom originally, AutoCad didn’t like that, so it acted like a 2-year old and said, “NO!” Anyway, after that was done, I realized that I had to redo the vents at the top since I had cut them up. All said and done, the entire process to get a new top ready to go took 5 hours.

In pictures I have been graciously sent and those I have found myself, I have decided that the location and configuration of the snorkel induction mast was pretty much as shown on the Permit plans I have, so I’m going to go ahead and start adding it. There is one major difference between the mast on the two ships, that plays to my advantage, and that is that the ID light is on the top of the mast on Greenling and the other large sail ships. This may make it easier to deal with the light, but we shall see.

I’ve decide that on this stage I will give a detailed description of what I am doing as I am doing it. Here we go.
I’m fortunate to have been provided plans that contain good details of the snorkel induction mast.
Image
I started by copying the cross-section at the top of the image above, importing it into AutoCad, and then scaling it and moving it where I wanted it. This I did totally by eyeball and guess work, using no known dimensions. The next step was to trace the outline using circles, ellipses, arcs and lines. The cross section I used shows the bottom side, which shows the outline of the top that matches the cutout in the sail (Red), the masts themselves (Magenta), and a support bracket (Blue). Each will be handled completely differently.
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So that is where I am at this point. I’m going to start with the outline, which means that I need to do a couple of things. I need to both cut a recessed hole in the top of the sail in the shape of the outline and create the outer surface of the mast. This requires that I make a copy of the model and the line. I also turn off the plan layer at this point and delete the sail planes as they can always be recopied and pasted.
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For some reason my drawing has a line that shoots off into space. It doesn’t seem to effect my model though, and I can create what appear to be good STL files that are needed to print on the stereolithograph (SLA) system I’m making the parts with so I haven’t been worried about it, but it’s just wrong.
Anyway the next step is to cut out the recessed area of the shape. We do this on the model we are going to keep.

I start by extruding the shape longer than I need it. In this case I have arbitrarily chosen to make the recess 0.1” deep, so I have drawn a line perpendicular to the surface at 0.1” from the bottom. I then move the 3-d shape and the line until the line just starts to disappear into the surface. The SUBTRACT Command is performed and Tada, we have our cut out.
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Now, going to the copied part, we again extrude the shape, but this time what we are eventually trying to create is the shell top surface for the mast. For the time being I am going to make it 0.01” thick at the shallowest place. It will eventually be trimmed, but we will deal with that later. After we get the shape sunk into the sail, as before, we run the UNION Command and Tada we have a bicycle seat. I always wondered how they came up with that shape.
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Seriously though, this piece (Modified a bit) will become the top of the mast. At this point I save the bicycle and traced lines into a new file “Part21-SnorkelInductor” and the sail into a new file.
I’ll get to the the snorkel later, but first, I want to finish the sail part, which means drilling the mast holes into the sail. To make sure they are stout, I’m drilling in 0.5”. The same procedure as before is used.

Since I am going to be running wires up the mast, I also need to drill a 0.04” diameter hole all the way through the sail.
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The sail part is completed, so now it’s time to address the mast. This is when we will find out if lights are even feasible, but it will have to wait for the next post.

CHEERS!!!
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Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:40 pm

UPDATE 27

Moving now to the Snorkel Induction Mast itself, after a bit of sleep, I start by opening the file, making a copy of the bicycle seat (saddle) and changing its color. The next step is to draw lines in preparation of moving the top saddle so that it is 0.01” lower than the lower one, then moving it into position. Now, at 1/144 scale, 0.01” on the model is equivalent to 3” on the ship. I don’t know how thick the shell would have been, and 3” might be a little thick, but 0.01” on the model is about as thin as I feel comfortable making it, even then, I have NO idea how it will come out when it is made on the SLA. Anyway running he SUBTRACT command gives me what I was trying to get, the top surface of the mast assembly.
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The next step is to make the masts by extruding the circles, but first I’m going to make a copy of everything for reasons that will soon become obvious. One good characteristic of extruded objects is that you can shorten or lengthen them at any time, but only from the extruded end. The base is set. So I’m going to move the circles up before extruding them down through the saddle.
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Now I have to cut the tops off of the mast to attach them to the saddle. Do the odd shape of the saddle, I’m not sure how best to do this but I’m going to first try using the SUBTRACT Command to subtract the saddle from the masts. Since I have to do the Command twice, I first copy the saddle onto itself, so that I have one for each mast.
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This worked as hoped, but the lopped off tops are still “attached” to the bottoms, so I need to SLICE them off.
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Yeah! This worked too, but I had to make sure that the slice line was going through the solid and not in the space between the solids. Now it’s time to move the shafts and connect them to the saddle.
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Ikes! I just discovered that the lofted mast lengths are no longer adjustable. I guess when I sliced them I lost the ability to resize them. OK, so I won’t attach them at this point in case I end up having to redo them which we will discover in a bit.

Turning to the “bracket” since I don’t know what else to call it, the shape I need to match is shown on the clip from the plans I have shown below. I’m not going to mess with the little lip at the front. It would be really difficult to do correctly and at 1/144 scale I don’t think it will make a difference.
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So, I first extrude the remaining shape. How far to extrude it is a WAG. I also prepare for making the slice across the bracket. From the pictures, the shape of the top of the bracket appears to be parabolic, so once again I use an ellipse.
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If I extrude the ellipse I get a solid, and I want a surface so I clip the ellipse and extrude it to make the surface I need for slicing the bracket, then SLICE it.
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I really like the way it turned out, and if you compare it to the last view on the plans in the first image, you can see that it looks pretty close. We’re not quite finished yet though as I still need to decide how long it should be. To do this I open the sail file and clip and paste the Snorkel Induction Mast into it. I set the height by eyeball, using the plans I have for Permit.
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So, at this point I realize two things. First, there is no way that my lighting plans are going to work. But, I have a Plan B. It’s always good to have a Plan B. When I was planning my lights for Bennington, Bob Wescott sent me six one foot long 0.018-0.020” diameter fiber optic strands, which I never used on Bennington, but will be perfect for Greenling. It will be the first time I have used fiber optics, but there have been a lot of firsts on this project thus far, and I suspect that there will be more.

The second thing I have realized is that two thin diameter tubes, over an inch long attached at just one end is an accident waiting to happen, so I think I need to give them some support. My first thought was to just join them with a piece of plastic that I could cut off when I’m actually building the models. Instead, I came up with a better plan.

I made “keys” on the mast and cut a slot between the holes in the sail. This will both give the mast part more strength and provide a means of aligning the mast.
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The last step (as far as this post goes) was to drill a 0.022” diameter hole through the large of the two masts to accommodate the fiber optic strand. Stay tuned, and I will add the light to complete the part.

CHEERS!!!
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Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:26 pm

UPDATE 28

Before starting on the ID light, I needed to look at some more pictures. Once again, this didn’t really clear things up much. In the two best shots I have, the light is different, even though it is in the same location.
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Applying the KISS principle (not the rock band), I am doing a somewhat simplified version of a blend of the two. I’ll start with a collar with the hole drilled out for the fiber optic strand, which will stop at this point.
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I like the shorter light in the first photo better that the longer skinnier one in the second photo so I’m just going to make a short neck, and top it off with a half sphere.
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Although. Like I said, I have never used fiber optics before, my hope is that the fiber optic strand installed against the clear plastic will light up the “bulb”. We’ll see. If not, I think it will look just fine without the lights. I just think they are a nice touch, and another challenge. So let’s see what it’s going to look like on the sail.
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Not to bad, if I do say so myself. YEEEAAAAAHHHH!

What next? Hmmmmmmmm
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Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:04 am

UPDATE 29

Hi again guys. As you can see, I had a very active day on the model. Currently though, things have slowed down as I am making very slow progress at trying to figure out how to do the various masts and features on the top of the sail. Using the picture below, also shown in the last post, and the Permit plans I have, I laid out the main features on the forward end of the sail.
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The image below shows what I have laid out so far. Items in green represent items that I know (or think I know) how I am going to deal with. The items in red are still big unknowns. As for the green items on the right, the photo above provides me enough information to model them sufficiently I think. The top item is a fearing that I will make part of the sail. For the round lower item, I will use steel and therefore will etch a 0.01” recess in the sail as I have done numerous times.
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Deciding how to model the forward green item (I sure wish I knew what these things were) required another picture.
Image
In the picture above of one of the large sail Permit class submarines (I think it’s Greenling, but I’m not sure) the forward extended mast is the one of interest. Note that it telescopes, and from the appearance of the one in the first picture, it does too. Just to the left of the mast, you can barely make out the fearing. So, I’m feeling pretty good about 3 of the 4 remaining items on the forward part of the sail. Now, if I just knew what the other one was, and/or at least what it looked like, I would be sitting sweet.

The aft section is pretty much a big unknown. About all I know is that the periscope was back there somewhere. Does anybody know where I might find out what the heck the masts on Greenling looked like? I have been given a “Bridge and mast Arrangements” plan sheet for Permit that seems to come from NavSea, and I’ve spent considerable amount of time searching the Web, with no luck.

Any and all help and/or comments would be appreciated.
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Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby wlambing » Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:24 am

Hello, again!

The forward most, extended mast in the picture is the BRA-21 Multi-purpose antenna. Just aft and out board of it is the WLR-9 "Sharktooth" fairing. Also seen in the picture looking forward from the bridge cockpit in UPDATE 28. The small black dome is the top of the BRA-21, the WLR-9 is the raised fairing just aft of it. On the port side is the ice cap of the BRD-6 or 7 " Beer can" (bears the"No Step" label). Aft of the cockpit you have both scopes, the search scope has the fairing and and camo paint, the attack scope is unfaired and has a very small optics head, so it can be sneaky. The horizontal plate at the side of the sail under the scopes is a diffuser plate for the diesel exhaust. There's one on each side above a line of open louvers. Nothing else was aft of the bridge, as there wasn't room. The workings for the sail planes are just aft of the bridge. Jim Christley did some excellent articles on a bunch of 594 and 637 arrangements/equipage in the early SCRs, through the mid-90s.

Have a lovely modeling day!

B^)
"If you ignore the problem long enough, it will go away. Even flooding stops eventually!"
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Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:32 pm

Awesome stuff wlambing!

This is great and couldn’t be timelier. I just “made” the BRA-21, and had named the file “UnnamedMast1”. Now I can give it a proper name. I am also just doing the WLR-9, and even though I don’t need to name it because I am just making it part of the sail, it is still good to know what the heck I’m making.
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The fairing hasn’t been attached to the sail yet because I wasn’t sure that I had the height right, but I the more I look at it, the more I think it’s right, or at least close enough.

The info about the BRD-6 or 7 “beer can” is also very welcome and has now become the next task I am going to work on. My guess, and it is just a WAG, is that Greenling had the BRD-7. I think this for 2 reasons; first Greenling was one of the later ships built and second, I have some decent plans for the BRD-6.
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A third potential reason that I think Greenling may have had the BRD-7 is because of its shape. The BRD-6 is round, but the one on the larger sails is more faring shaped, but this may be more a result of where it is located than anything else. I don’t know.

In any case, I’m going to make the BRD-6 that I have plans for, but with the fairing shaped “ice cap”.
As if this information didn’t already have me dancing the modeler’s jig, wlambing’s post also revealed that only the search and attack periscopes were aft of the bridge. The Permit plans I was provided include fairly good details of the attack periscope, so now it is just a matter of deciding exactly where it goes.
Image
If I don’t find, or be graciously given, anything better, I can probably determine the location of both scopes from pictures. I may also be able to get sufficient detail of the search scope from pictures to make a reasonable facsimile of it.
I am still undecided on how to handle the bridge. The easy way would be to simply etch the outline in the same manner that I have been doing, but I’m giving some thought to modeling it open, with the windshield on. This would be difficult, but doable, except then, how would I deal with the inside?

I do have a question dlambing, you mentioned diffuser plates for diesel exhaust and said that they were “at the side of the sail under the scopes… above a line of open louvers.” I’m not sure where you are talking about. Is this the round plate in the picture looking forward from the bridge cockpit? Open louvers? What and where are these?

Thanks again for the info!!!

CHEERS!!!
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Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:57 pm

UPDATE 30

Good Afternoon Fellow Modelers!

I have indeed had the lovely modeling day that wlambing wished me and made possible with the information that he provided. The results to this point are shown below. ENJOY!

Image

Image

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Image

Image

Image
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Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby wlambing » Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:42 pm

Ah!

We must correctify ourselves! What we're calling a BRD-6 is actually the ECM (formerly ESM) mast and antenna!! I had forgotten about that beasty and was thinking that the BRDs had been around longer. My bad! My apologies! Looks good, though!

The diffuser plates I mentioned are in the right hand picture, in the first set of your UPDATE 28. Look at the junction of the curved sail top and the vertical sail side. See the plate jutting out at that joint? That's the diffuser. Also, the vertical pipe sticking up a couple of feet forward of the faired scope on top is the attack scope. I don't have anything that shows the number of openings in the louver under the diffuser plate.

B^)
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Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:33 pm

I think you are right on both accounts. The plans call it BRD-6 ECM Mast.

Does ECM stand for Electronic Counter Measure?

As for the diffuser plates, now I know what you are referring to. I've been wondering since early on whether or not they were on Greenling. They aren't on her on the pictures I have seen, nor are they on the pix I have of Gato.

Here is what I have so far for the periscopes.
Image
The attack scope is completed. The search scope still needs a top. It's funky and it seems like I have seen a good shot of one somewhere. I'm thinking it was a model.

Thanks again for the info!
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Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:29 am

UPDATE 31

A lovely modeling day indeed. The sail is completed (I think.) Here are some images.
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Notice that I decided to model it with the bridge open, and even included the portable bridge console.
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At this point, the AutoCad model is essentially finished, except I am still considering adding the sonar fairings to the main hull and I think I’m going to add number racks to the side of the sail like was discussed earlier.

CHEERS!!!
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Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:29 pm

Scott T wrote:This is looking great! How about adding raised draft numbers on the hull?
Scott T

Thanks again for this post Scott!

It got me thinking (sometimes a dangerous thing), and then when I saw the picture (bermuda2), and wlambing confirmed that the numbers were often removable, and not painted, I decided to take your advice and raise them and put them on a bracket. (A removable one would be cool, but I’m not going there.)
Image

Image
OK, true, they aren’t the draft numbers, but I think they look cool, so I’m going to look into doing the draft numbers too. The problem is that they may be too small to do effectively, but it is certainly worth exploring, because it may be difficult to find the right size and type of decal, and since they are white, making them myself is out. I wonder if raised or recessed would be better?
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Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:38 am

UPDATE 32

Good Morning All!

I couldn’t resist it, (Not that I tried very hard), but the more I thought about it, the more I liked Scott’s idea of the raised draft numbers, and so I went for it. I didn’t mention this before, but a while back I found a US Navy font, which is what I used to make the numbers. Unfortunately, the numbers wouldn’t extrude. Some do, some don’t. These didn’t, so I traced them, and then extruded them 0.005”. The rudder numbers were easy, because it is basically a straight surface. The hull numbers were a bear because the hull is curving in two directions and it isn’t consistent as you move up the hull. Therefore each number (or number pair) had to be moved and rotated and re-rotated, and moved, and… repeatedly until it was flush with the surface, then it was moved just a hair into the surface to make sure a corner wasn’t jutting out somewhere.
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I also like the way sonar fairings look, so I decided to add them. I had at one time put the rear fairing on, then convinced myself that it wasn’t on the ship when my buddy was on it 1970-1973, but was put on in 1979 when they added the towed array. Since then, I have seen pictures of the fearing without the towed array, so maybe the aft fairing was on her when my buddy was playing chicken with the Ruskies (no offense met to any Russian friends out there). In any case, it is on my model.
According to my buddy, the forward fairing was on the ship part of the time that he was on it, so I’m good there. In contrast to the aft fairing, which was created using a simple foil shape, extruded, revolved and UNION’ed, the shape of the forward fairing was quite complex. It was essentially a circle and ellipse inside an ellipse, lofted another ellipse. There! Don’t you feel better? Now you know exactly how I did it. :o) Suffice it to say it was time consuming and I had to do it twice because it wasn’t right the first time, too skinny.
The images below show the numbering and the fairings, and even though you can’t see the forward one very well, I think it looks pretty much like the real deal.
Image
This means that the AutoCad phase of this project is over. I don’t know if I’m happy or sad about it. It’s cool that the parts are now going to be made, but man the AutoCad stuff has been FUN!!! In any event, I have converted all of the files to the STL format they need to be in and e-mailed them to my friend. He said he could probably get them done this week, but I have my doubts because he is going to China for 2 weeks Thursday. So my guess is that he won’t get to it until he gets back, which will make it a long 2 weeks.
Here are some images of the completed “assembled”model. Red items are not parts, but are scratch built items (wire).
The first 2 images show the top and bottom views, respectively.
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The next 2 images show the forward and aft views.
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The port and starboard views are next.
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Followed by images from various angles.
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I have a couple of more tidbits to share, but they will have to wait until the next Update, which should be fairly soon.

CHEERS!!!
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Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:55 am

UPDATE 33

Here are the tidbits I mentioned.

The final parts diagram. (There are a few more parts than I started with).
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The metal parts template.
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CHEERS!!!
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Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby salmon » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:18 am

What a fun trip that was! As I look at your sections, did you put in an index key for alignment of the hull pieces?
If you can cut, drill, saw, hit things and swear a lot, you're well on the way to building a working model sub.
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