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USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

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Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby salmon » Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:29 pm

Well done, and a nice detail! Cheers!
If you can cut, drill, saw, hit things and swear a lot, you're well on the way to building a working model sub.
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Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:43 am

UPDATE 23
Merry Christmas All!

As a gift, on this special day, I’m going to show you how I scribe the depressions for the objects that I plan to make out of metal. For this demonstration, I will use the Access Hatches near the sail.

In this case I already had a hatch drawn, so I copied and pasted it so that it was aligned properly with the plans. To make sure that the object was above the surface I was going to project to I drew a polyline from the point on one of the cleats to a good reference point on the drawing.
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The next step is to do a PROJECTGEOMETRY command to project the object onto the hull. I also project the center line of the object I added for reasons that will become evident shortly.
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I don’t really need the original anymore, so I delete it and the unprojected lines. I then draw a line from the center of the projected center line perpendicular to the central axis of the ship, and then reorient the axis as shown.
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I then recopy and paste the hatch to the center point of the projected hatch, and extrude it. If the surface was flat, I could simply move the lofted hatch 0.01” down into it, but since the hull is curved, it won’t be even. It will be deeper in the middle and shallow on the edges.
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If you look at it from the front, you can see the curve. In fact, you can see that the curve is not constant. To cut this out of the bottom of the projected hatch, I draw polylines along both ends of the projected hatch (yellow). I then move each one out (away from the extruded hatch) just a hair.
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This assures that when I loft the polylines to make a surface and move it up into the projected hatch, the surface is outside of the projected hatch everywhere.
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That way when I slice the extruded hatch, in the next step, it will work. If all sides are not outside the object being sliced, it will not slice. After slicing I discard the lower piece and the surface.
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Next I mark off a spot 0.01” up from the bottom, because that is how far I want the extruded hatch to protrude into the hull.
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At this stage it is just a matter of moving the hatch and marker line down until the marker line just starts to disappear into the surface…
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If there was just one hatch to do, I would simply subtract the hatch from the hull and I would have a nice depression with a uniform depth of 0.01”. But there is another one on the other side of the hull and to save work I simply mirror this one to the other side before subtracting. Then I get 2 depressions for the price of one. Gotta love symmetry!
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So that’s it. That’s all there is to it. It’s a little more involved than just etching, but as you just saw, it’s not that difficult and it’s fun.
MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!
Oh, and thanks salmon!
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Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:49 am

UPDATE 24

Hi All,
The detailing of the hull is complete, so I thought I would post some images.
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I’ve also updated the metal template. It should include everything except items on the sail, but I will do another pass through to make sure I remembered to include everything as I was etching them.
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I’m starting on the sail next, with very little information consisting of a couple of decent photos. I especially need to know what Greenling’s periscope and mast configuration was from 1970-1973. Does anybody have any idea? Pictures? Plans? Any information you guys have would be appreciated.

CHEERS!!!
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Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:49 am

Tom Dougherty wrote:...The draft numbers are painted on.

I thought so too, but while poring over pix in my meager Greenling/Permit/Thresher photo library to figure out what I need to do on the sail, I was looking at the picture below for the umpteenth time and discovered that at least in some cases this might not be so.
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If you look carefully at the numbers you can se that they are on a bracket out from the hull. You can see the shadows of the numbers and the brackets on the hull. Do you think they actually sailed with it like that, or was it removeable, and they only put it on when surfaced? If it's removeable, that would explain why you see so many pictures of her without numbers. Interesting. Any clues out there?
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Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby wlambing » Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:01 am

Guys,

Hull numbers were only placed on the sail during inport periods, and for a long time, not even then! Rather than wasting time painting the numbers on, then painting them out prior to underways, most boats did some sort of temporary thing such as in your picture. I've seen this set-up, sign boards hung from chains, and large magnetic numbers, too. One of the first things to get struck below when rigging ship for leaving port.

Happy New Year!!
B^)
"If you ignore the problem long enough, it will go away. Even flooding stops eventually!"
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Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby Scott T » Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:52 pm

I just mentioned the hull draft numbers be etched to relieve the stress of finding the correct size and location of the numbers
later. If you inset them a little then you could rub some paint in them and and wipe off the excess. If you did draw them
on the hull then you could cut you a stencil like you are making for the different covers and grills.
Hey what kind of work do you do in Norman that involves CAD work? I am up here in OK City and work for OGE as a drafter.
just control line drawings no 3-D drawing. Really enjoying this build.

Scott T
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Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:35 am

Hmmm, interesting Scott. I will keep that in mind as something to think about when I get to that point. I like making my own decals, but white ones are an issue because I have yet to find a printer that prints white, which means you have to cut the decal out precisely. Etching oh so slightly might be the ticket, but maybe I will just make it like in the photo, as a seperate part. Many decisions still yet to make.

And I am an engineer specializing in stream and river assessment and restoration. I use AutoCad Civil3D to help in my designs, though I never use the 3D portion of it. Simple cross-sections, plans and profiles.

HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL!!!!!!
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Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:03 am

wlambing wrote:Guys,

Hull numbers were only placed on the sail during inport periods, and for a long time, not even then! Rather than wasting time painting the numbers on, then painting them out prior to underways, most boats did some sort of temporary thing such as in your picture. I've seen this set-up, sign boards hung from chains, and large magnetic numbers, too. One of the first things to get struck below when rigging ship for leaving port.

Happy New Year!!
B^)

This clears up a lot! Thanks!!!
It gives me a lot of options too.
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Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:05 pm

Opinions Wanted

Hello Everyone,

As you know if you have been following this build, I am currently detailing the sail and sort of have a dilemma. I want to put the Jack Staff (Flag Staff? It’s not a British ship. :o) Gee, I wonder where that term came from?) on the aft edge of the sail as seen in various photos. As you can see in the images below, it’s not as easy as all of that. Using a diameter of 0.025”, a size that I think would support flags, and is equivalent to 3.75” on the ship, the cylinder of the jack staff intersects a significant area of the sail, as you can see in the first image.
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In the second image you can see what the sail part would look like if I simply drilled a 0.025” diameter hole in the sail.Image
This looks like a dicey proposition to me, so I am considering adding a 0.035” diameter support shaft, as shown in the next two images.
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Due to the scale, either option disrupts the natural lines of the sail. I want your opinion as to which one you think is the better option. No support, or support? Or another option?

THANKS!!!

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Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby wlambing » Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:23 pm

If you really scrutinize (big word alert!!) the picture above, you'll see that the "pigstick" is actually monuted on a removable bracket that is pinned to the trailing edge of the sail. The bracket consists of a sharper than normal piece of angle material with the stick socket welded to it. The stick is ball-lock pinned into the socket. In turn, the bracket is pinned to the sail with two ball-locks. That makes for easy removal and install. This might make it easier for you to model.

Take care,

B^)
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Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:20 pm

Hmmmm.... Very interesting. Let's see wat I can do with that.
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Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:57 am

Another Option

I think this is getting closer to what you are talking about wlambing.
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It would definitely be easier to model, but after rereading your post more thoroughly, I think I have another idea I’m going to try. I’ll post it when I finish it.
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Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:12 am

Final Option?

By George, I think I’ve got it. I took the original plate (Magenta) that I had and added an extension parallel to the hull surface (Blue). It started as a box gut I learned you can fillet the edges on 3-D objects, so I filleted them at 0.005” radius.

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Wlambing had mentioned in his post that “bracket is pinned to the sail with two ball-locks,” so I thought I would try to simulate them using extruded circles.

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My original thought was to make a separate part for the jack staff and have the attachment hardware be part of that piece.

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After further thought, I decided that this was a BAD idea, and that the staff should be built out of steel wire. Also, wlambing mentioned a stick socket that I needed to include, so I redesigned it so that the attachment hardware, including a newly added socket, would be part of the sail. I only have 0.064” of depth though, so I’m not sure that that will be deep enough to support a staff with flags. I guess I will find out, because if I go any deeper it starts protruding through the sides, as I showed earlier.

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Finally, the last image reminded me that wlambing had said that “The stick” is ball-lock pinned into the socket, so I added one there as well.

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I should note that it is the crew of this USS Greenling has officially dedicated the ship’s Jack Staff in the name of one Mr.(?) wlambing, whose dedication and commitment to the improvement of better modeling has served their ship well. :D

Seriously though, THANKS wlambing!

That does it for the sides (bulkheads? Are they bulkheads on subs too?), so I will be posting the results shortly, and asking for help with the top.

CHEERS!!!
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Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby rdutnell » Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:20 am

UPDATE 25

Hello Everybody!!

As I said in my last post, I have completed detailing the vertical surfaces ;o) of the sail. I think it came out pretty well considering all I really had to go on were these photos. There were a couple of others, but these were the primary ones I used.

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There was a heck of a lot of guess work involved and nothing was measured. I just eyeballed it from the photos. It is close, but I won’t profess that it is accurate by any means. Still, I think it will serve the purpose just fine.

Here are images showing the sail as it is now prior to starting on the top. The yellow line is where the top of the hull will be.

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This was a very enjoyable experience and I really had a lot of fun doing it. The navigation lights were particularly fun to do. Speaking of lights, although you can’t see it in the photos, the part was designed to allow for LED chips. Space is pretty tight, so this won’t be an easy task. To begin with, the lights won’t be protruding from the surface, they will be inside near the openings, in the case of the navigation lights. My experience with these lights is that there will be plenty of light emanating from the holes I have cut in the shell. In fact, to prevent the green starboard side light from glowing out the port side and the red port side light from glowing out the starboard side, I added a 0.01” wall down the middle of the sail.

The fact that the plastic is clear is an asset and a liability. In the case of the navigation lights, it is a liability, because itmeans that I need to find some way to paint the wall I added, otherwise the light will go right through it. I’m giving thought to simply dunking the whole part in black paint.

In the case of the identification beacon, the clear plastic is an asset, because since the light is so small, I am going to take advantage of the clearness to simply make the light dome part of the part and mask it before I paint it. This means that dunking the part in black paint has to be done carefully so as not to paint the inside surface of the dome. We’ll see, because this may be a moot point, as I am not even sure that the beacon goes where I have it. Some pix, and plans, have it on towers on the mast.

Which brings me to where I am now, stuck. I have no clue what Greenling’s sail top side looked like. Nor what goodies she carried on her mast. I know she had a periscope, perhaps more than one, but I don’t even know where they would have been. Can anyone help me out?

Oh, and I have another question, because I think may have just learned something new. Is the sail also called a Fairwater? If so, SWEET. I love learning new stuff (like Pig Stick). If not, then what the heck is a Fairwater?

CHEERS!!!
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Re: USS Greenling (SSN-614) Scratchbuild

Postby Tom Dougherty » Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:31 pm

Yes, the sail is also called the fairwater. In fact, the dive planes are also called fairwater planes.

Confusion can come about when it is called the conning tower, which it is not. WWII submarines had conning towers, which were relatively small pressure hulls atop the main pressure hull from which the attacks were conducted. The pericopes were placed in the conning towers, as was the Torpedo Data Computer (TDC) and a steering station. One hatch and ladder led down into the control room, the other hatch led up to the bridge used when on the surface. The streamlined area surrounding the conning tower was termed the fairwater. After the war, the Guppy conversions of the WWII Fleet subs led to increased streamlining of the fairwater (see below)
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You can see the conning tower in the above diagram.

Nuclear subs (with the exception of two early submarines) did not have conning towers, but rather integrated control rooms within the main pressure hull. With the elimination of the bulky conning tower, the fairwater was thus further streamlined into the current sail structure.
Last edited by Tom Dougherty on Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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