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Any members in the North London region.....

The United Kingdom Local Chapter

Postby Sub culture » Fri Feb 21, 2003 7:41 am

....interested in an evenings sailing in a large indoor swimming pool?
Just putting the feelers out for a possible event, to also include members of the AMS.

Regards

Andy
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Postby 85-1046056608 » Wed Mar 05, 2003 7:32 pm

Hi Andy,

I live in the North London area, well York but it's north of London.

I would love to attend your indoor meeting. It would be nice to see the AMS boats with their steering gater bellows and bicycle inner tube ballast tanks, not to mention the most highly qualified submariners in the world............Reported to be AMS members. I bet the real reason for the indoor event is for the benifit of the outdated, antiquated AMS boats to sink......oop's I mean sail in safety.

SC members build and operate good dependable working subs, whilst the AMS..........well you know what I mean. If the AMS is so good then by all means go with them, enjoy their company BUT stop advertising their not so esteemed presence on the SC boards.

clive :(
85-1046056608
 

Postby Sub culture » Thu Mar 06, 2003 1:22 pm

U99 Supersub wrote:Hi Andy,

I live in the North London area, well York but it's north of London.

I would love to attend your indoor meeting. It would be nice to see the AMS boats with their steering gater bellows and bicycle inner tube ballast tanks, not to mention the most highly qualified submariners in the world............Reported to be AMS members. I bet the real reason for the indoor event is for the benifit of the outdated, antiquated AMS boats to sink......oop's I mean sail in safety.

SC members build and operate good dependable working subs, whilst the AMS..........well you know what I mean. If the AMS is so good then by all means go with them, enjoy their company BUT stop advertising their not so esteemed presence on the SC boards.

clive :(

Hello Clive

I take it there isn't any love lost between you and the AMS.

I would like to say that in no part of my post was I promoting the AMS.

I mentioned the AMS so as folk would realise this event is not weighted towards any particular club or society- if you are a submariner you are welcome.

Even if I had been guilty of promoting the AMS, I see no harm in doing so- we are all part of the same hobby and neither organisation is out to make a profit- are they?

However, seeing as you have cast the AMS in a negative light, I feel duty bound to respond.

Your comments regarding the skills and technology existing within the AMS are inaccurate to put it mildly.

I have seen some of the finest craftmanship and technology developed in the AMS as well as the cruder arrangements you mention in your post.

It's aswell to remember that not everyone has access to workshop facilities, and I think a boat that has been put together using 'bicycle inner tubes' is just as worthy as an all singing and dancing finely machined technological masterpiece.

I'm proud to be part of an organisation that encourages all levels of ability and does not promote an elitist attitude which time and agian has resulted in the destruction of model societies up and down the land.

I am also proud to be a member of the Sub Committee, although when I see posts like this it does make me wonder.......!

Regards

Andrew




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Postby 85-1046056608 » Fri Mar 07, 2003 9:49 am

Hi Andy,

Yes you could say I don't hold with much of what the AMS stands for. More later........

As for you not promoting the AMS.........I'm nearly speachless! You take every oportunity you possibly can to try and promote the AMS on the SC message boards.


I can live with your third comment.

You are guilty. Period! And the way I see it, it's harmful in the extreme because the AMS steadfastly refuse to move with the times and even worse actively promote unsafe techniques in the building of model submarines.....I can't see where profit enters the arguement.

If all this wonderful skill, craftmanship and technology exists within the AMS then at least part of the membership is elitist, yet you deride elitism..........make your mind up! If it wasn't for the elite then nothing would move forward and become better, which in the case of the AMS is sadly true. I won't bother asking what great technological advances the AMS has made in the field of model subs because I would have to wait an awful long time for a constructive reply.

Workshop facilities has little to do with building SAFE working model submarines, it's nearly all down to mentality, attitude, call it what you will. If you live in the dark ages then you produce dark ages material.........

We have all ready gone over elitist...........your comment makes little sense, unless of course fine craftmanship and wonderful technology is only a pipe dream within the AMS. In that case I take your point over elitism.

Membership............We have an elite in the SC and most of us are proud of them because as stated earlier without these elitist members everything stays the same...........So why are you a member?

Looking at the above I can see why you are an AMS member!!
Your (elite) lets call them experts don't even know how many blades should be on a British X Craft propeller as proven in print and photo's about a year ago.............!!!

Lastly. Yes you could say I don't like the AMS. I cannot stand PIRACY.....which the AMS are most certainly guilty of.........I need say no more but if you don't know what I'm talking about I suggest you do a little digging around.........

So if you want to stand tall and defend a bunch of Pirates....That's your choice. Me, I'm happy being a member of THE PREMIER MODEL SUBMARINE CLUB IN THE WORLD.

Regards,
Clive.

:D
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Postby Sub culture » Fri Mar 07, 2003 12:02 pm

[quote="U99 Supersub"][/quote]
As for you not promoting the AMS.........I'm nearly speachless! You take every oportunity you possibly can to try and promote the AMS on the SC message boards.

I disagree. I've mentioned the AMS probably a few times, generally in reponse to direct questioning regarding either AMS members models, or individuals requesting if other organisations exist in this field.

I see nothing wrong with that.

I can live with your third comment.

Cheers!

You are guilty. Period! And the way I see it, it's harmful in the extreme because the AMS steadfastly refuse to move with the times and even worse actively promote unsafe techniques in the building of model submarines.....I can't see where profit enters the arguement.

Promotion of unsafe techniques- where, when?
Were you ever a member of the AMS? Visited a show recently?
The London model engineering exhibiton had a good display of our models and was well received- and the AMS is moving very nicely with the times, although I'd concede there is always room for improvement.

If all this wonderful skill, craftmanship and technology exists within the AMS then at least part of the membership is elitist, yet you deride elitism..........make your mind up! If it wasn't for the elite then nothing would move forward and become better, which in the case of the AMS is sadly true. I won't bother asking what great technological advances the AMS has made in the field of model subs because I would have to wait an awful long time for a constructive reply.

Yes, because elitism is the dominance of the elite, not good for the hobby in general if only the best are welcome- we can't all be experts.
I agree- nothing wrong with advancing the hobby, but it has to be accessible for all.

Are modellers of static submarines fools?
Afterall the art of building static models is largely unchanged since modelmaking began!

At the end of the day there is only so many ways of moving water- you suck it in and push it out, with a plunger, a gas, compressed air or a whizzy pump.
You can only incorporate so many failsafes and backup systems before the boat becomes unreliable.

Workshop facilities has little to do with building SAFE working model submarines, it's nearly all down to mentality, attitude, call it what you will. If you live in the dark ages then you produce dark ages material.........

Can you give examples please. I haven't seen an unsafe model displayed by the AMS, that doesn't mean to say that one doesn't exist though.
BTW are all the models built by Sub Committee members safe?

We have all ready gone over elitist...........your comment makes little sense, unless of course fine craftmanship and wonderful technology is only a pipe dream within the AMS. In that case I take your point over elitism.

Nope, it exists, as do simpler affairs, they all serve a purpose.

Picture the scene will you. Someone spends months building their pride and joy- perhaps a simple submarine, nothing sophisticated. Along comes an expert who casts a critical eye over it, and proclaims it a load of outdated rubbish.
Charming huh!
That person will either go away and build something better, ignore the comments, or will more likely fail to return.

Membership............We have an elite in the SC and most of us are proud of them because as stated earlier without these elitist members everything stays the same...........So why are you a member?

I enjoy building an operating model submarines and sharing advice with like minded individuals!

Looking at the above I can see why you are an AMS member!!
Your (elite) lets call them experts don't even know how many blades should be on a British X Craft propeller as proven in print and photo's about a year ago.............!!!

Now you are rivet counting! Have you seen Alan Poole's X craft BTW?

Lastly. Yes you could say I don't like the AMS. I cannot stand PIRACY.....which the AMS are most certainly guilty of.........I need say no more but if you don't know what I'm talking about I suggest you do a little digging around.........

Tarring us all with the same brush, nice! Good and bad in every organisation.
Can you give some insight into this alledged piracy, cause I haven't got a clue what you are on about.
If there are clouds in the AMS's past, then I'm sure they have cleared now, and I know there are quite a few members working away for nix promoting our hobby at shows throughout the South- the Sub Com UK doing the same in the North.

So if you want to stand tall and defend a bunch of Pirates....That's your choice.

lol I'm 5' 5", but I'll do my best!

Me, I'm happy being a member of THE PREMIER MODEL SUBMARINE CLUB IN THE WORLD.

Ditto! I enjoy being a member of the AMS too! ;)

At the end of the day, I was attempting to organise an event that was independant of any organisation.

If you want to take it any other way- it's your problem!

Andrew
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Postby 82-1045815099 » Fri Mar 07, 2003 12:58 pm

:angry:

Andy,

As I see it, the only thing that most The SubCommittee members and the AMS have in common is that they build and operate model submarines. That does not mean they are the same. Every club or organisation has a different ethos. A differing point of view.

More to the point, you have used the SubCommittee UK site not only to promote the AMS but to organise a sailing date for those who may attend. Under whose banner? Yours, The SubCommittee UK or the AMS
What of insurance and the usually forgotten details, etc, etc.?

You are not a member of the SubCommittee UK branch/chapter. Why don't you join us. Membership is a nominal £5 a year. Get in touch with Dave Keogh our Chairman on DDKEO@NETCOMUK.CO.UK He'll be happy to sign you up.

Rockape
p :cool:




Edited By Rockape on 1047056502
82-1045815099
 

Postby Sub culture » Fri Mar 07, 2003 1:27 pm

Yes that's true, I did use the board to promote a sailing date, for model submariners.
As for promoting the AMS I refer you to my comments above.
If I am to be chastised for referring to this organisation then so be it. The fact is I've learnt a great deal through being a member of both the sub committee and the AMS.

Insurance? No I hadn't forgotten this important detail at all.
Any individual would be required to provide some proof that they were adequately insured, either individually or through a club.
I would have sought further clarification of this issue, assuming that I had sufficient numbers to make the evening viable.

At the present I was just 'flying a kite' so to speak.
The response from Mr Wadsworth left me feeling quite demoralised.

I took sole responsibility for this event, it had nothing to do with the AMS, although most other model submariners I know in the UK happen to be AMS members so it would be inevitable that AMS members would be present.

Personally, I'm not a massive fan of committee's, clubs and societies because of the politics and petty bickering that can so easily develop. Also the work of running these organisations inevitibly falls to the same old few, who eventually get fed-up and/or run out of steam or leave the hobby altogether.

However, I recognise they are a necessary in pooling talent and ideas.

Rest assured I shan't use these boards to advertise any other event in the future.

As for joining the UK chapter, after this little exchange, I don't think so. You don't really want a pirate in the ranks, do you?
Although I thank you for the offer all the same.

Regards

Andrew




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Postby 82-1045815099 » Fri Mar 07, 2003 2:35 pm

Andy,

The early member of the RN Submarine Serice were considered Pirates.

My hero Max Horton did not become Senior RN Officer in the Baltic because he was a considered a pirate.

Why not join us then you might see us in a different light.

Your choice. You've only a £5 to lose. You might gain a lot.

Rockape.
:cool:
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Postby 77-1045870104 » Fri Mar 07, 2003 5:52 pm

Come on guys,

We are all interested in the same hobby on this site.
Can't we all enjoy it as it should be without bickering with each other.
At least Andy was trying to get a bunch of people who have the same interests together for an enjoyable day out. Does it really matter who belongs to which club.
If you remember Clive I asked for your advice about an Engel piston tank recently and you very kindly sent me pics and information about how you went about the conversion on your Robbe. I was very grateful for this but when I asked if you knew about the Baxter system and that I had seen pics of a system that used a bicycle inner tube your attitude changed.
You said that if I were to use the Piston tank then you would give me more information on it but if I were to use a ( In your own words ) "a Heath Robinson system " then you were on your own.
Wasn't that a bit biased? Try to remember that everyone has different ideas to achieve the same goal, it is what makes this hobby so enjoyable.
Perhaps the piston tank is an elitist system over the Baxter system yet they both work very well, and achieve the same result.
I am not taking sides in all this but can't we leave the politics out of our hobby and get on with what we like best " SUBMARINES "
If I lived closer I would love to join you Andy but I live in Romsey, Hants. It would be great to meet a lot of like minded people and see what things they have achieved with their subs.
Keep up the good work of trying to get people together no matter what club they belong to.

Regards

Steve :) :D
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Postby 85-1046056608 » Fri Mar 07, 2003 8:46 pm

Hi Steve,

Yes I quite willingly sent you the information because you asked and in the sub we were discussing it works. You then went off on a tangent I don't happen to like or agree with because I feel these old design ballast systems are not safe and cannot be justifiably used when there are more modern and safer methods available.

I agree that there are many ways to achieve the goal of a sailing model submarine but surely the prime objective is dependability and safety.

An Engel tank isn't elitist. It's a reasonably inexpensive well engineered ballast tank system that is about as safe as any system available when used with a Engel/Bruggen BTS. For £150 quid you get the tank and operating switch with THREE built in fail safe systems.

If you choose to go down a route that's old and by modern standards unreliable that's your choice. Model submarines are great fun and there is tremendous satisfaction to be gained from building and operating them. I go to the lake, put the boat in the water, sail for upto 2 hours or so then take the boat home via the local, result..........happy as a sand boy! Put your (in my view) sub-standard (heath robinson) boat in the water and you stand a far greater chance of going home with just your boat stand and Tx (that's if you can get it to work). I've seen it happen at a low key model boat club regatta and it's not nice, even when it's not your boat. (the owner wasn't AMS or SC).

The environment that model submarines have to operate in is probably the most hostile that any working model has to endure. Even more so if your lake is at all like my local one. Zero to six foot in about 10 feet, much less in places, then a sheer drop to an average of 35 feet. Don't ever forget you are operating a model in the full size environment!

As for taking sides. Yes I will take sides and defend any moderm ballast system over the pioneering ones every time IF the modern system can be fitted in the boat. Anyone who doesn't is in my opinion is foolhardy.

I will also take sides when it comes to posting on this board. I have every right to post here because I am a paid up member of the SubCommittee and SubCommittee UK.

Andy isn't an SC UK member so what gives him the right to preach on this board to those of us who are members. The Model Engineer Exhibition was mentioned as a show case for the AMS in his last little rant BUT do they sail their boats at the Model Engineer?......NO. Will they share their information freely, like I did with you if you went up to talk to them on their stand?........NO. Would they allow you to post as you have done on this site?........NO. Would they let you sail one of their boats at a regatta?..........NO.

Having a group to go to is great and if Andy seems your sort of guy to learn from/talk to that's fine too. Why not join the SC and the AMS, then over time choose which group you like best.............However until you are a paid up member of the SC and SC UK please do not try the "moderating" bit on this board over something you know very little/nothing about.

Cheers,
Clive.



:laugh:
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Postby Sub culture » Sat Mar 08, 2003 8:44 am

The higher the monkey climbs the tree, the more he shows his backside!

Clive, would you kindly explain why you feel the compressed air system is unsafe!

Any model submariner who knows his (or her- haven't met any lady submariners though) onions is aware of the pro's and cons of various ballast systems.

Ignorance is not bliss when it comes to model submarines, and if you choose to build a submarine without a through understanding of pressure and it's consequences then you can't be too upset if you return home minus a boat.

The compressed air ballast system has many advantages, but it can be susceptible to pressure so you need to be aware of the depth you want to run your model to.

Alternatively you can run a boat slightly positively bouyant and then this isn't really an issue!

£150 might not be a lot to you Clive, but to some people that can take some earning. I know a lad, who is still at school, who owns the same boat as you, and was interested in converting it to static dive.

He purchased the boat S/H and it had taken him a long time to save the money for that, so further expenditure on a static ballast system had to be kept low.
I made him aware of the various ways of doing this- guess what system he chose! Yep- the bicycle inner tube- and it works fine. He is aware of the limitations of the design, but for the time being, he too is as happy as a 'sand boy'.

You don't buy a mini if you want a luxury ride, and you don't buy a Rolls Royce if you want a cheap runabout!

Clive, the AMS run their subs at every given opportunity at shows. We did not run at the Model Engineering exhibition, BECAUSE THEY DON'T PROVIDE A POOL! DOH!

It's a bit tiresome standing around on a stand all day looking at dry boats. All the same our display attracted a lot of attention, and we were asked all sorts of questions which were answered fully.


As for letting spectators 'have a go', I am always happy to let folk have a go of my Seehund, provided they ask nicely. However this an individual choice, and I can quite understand if folk don't wish to let every Tom, Dick or Harry pile their pride and joy into the side of the pool (yes I've had that happen to me a few times). Plus there is the issue of insurance.......!

Also, as I see it, I have every right to post on this board, I am a fully paid up member of the Sub Committee, and this board is funded by the Sub Committee.

If the Sub Committee UK wants to set up an independant board, funded by it's membership then I won't go near it with a 10 foot barge pole, I can assure you!

In the meantime, may I off a suggestion that Subcommittee UK members use this board a little more creatively than merely slagging people and organisations off!

Andy

P.s. What is the £5 charge for?




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Postby 85-1046056608 » Sat Mar 08, 2003 11:45 am

Andy,

I will treat your opening sentence with the contempt it deserves!

If you actually look at what you have written on this type of compressor system. You have answered why it's unsafe. I need say no more.

As for running with slight positive buoyancy to over come the problem........!! Your understanding of pressure is, shall we say, as limited as your thinking!

Contempt again for your rather childish remark on the ME issue. I notice you did defend the other comments (I take your point over joe public and sailing) I made but I still contest the talking/knowledge part............because from personal experience I know it to be true. Whilst talking ME that wonderful X Craft you mentioned, the one that won the prestigious award at the ME just over a year ago was the very one sporting the wrong propeller............WHAT A JOKE!!!

Cars...........Contempt!.........Mini or Rolls, it still has to be road worthy.

As for the SubCommittee UK. You are just plain ignorant. Try getting off your backside and doing a little proper reserch and you will answer your own question. It's only babies that need spoon feeding!

Creative postings. I'm all for it. What started out as a little quip in reply to your un-answered post has been entertaining. However I must point out it's not I that felt threatened over a couple of small prods!

Now do take care and don't forget the innertube repair kit the next time you go sailing!!

The balls in your court as to whether this continues.

Have a good day,
Clive.



:D
85-1046056608
 

Postby Sub culture » Sat Mar 08, 2003 3:21 pm

If you actually look at what you have written on this type of compressor system. You have answered why it's unsafe. I need say no more.

As for running with slight positive buoyancy to over come the problem........!! Your understanding of pressure is, shall we say, as limited as your thinking!

Oh, how so? If you empty all the air out of the bags, fixed tank- whatever, then you have no air left to compress as the boat runs deeper.
Assuming the owner has ballasted the boat to decks awash, you then have a dynamic diver- not ideal I'll grant you, but a lot of modellers run their boats like this, especially stateside.

Contempt again for your rather childish remark on the ME issue. I notice you did defend the other comments (I take your point over joe public and sailing) I made but I still contest the talking/knowledge part............because from personal experience I know it to be true.

Oh well, I thought it funny that you should chastise us for not sailing when there was no pool- rather akin to the mad hatters tea party- no tea.
I always found the AMS crowd to be friendly and good natured on the whole, otherwise I wouldn't have joined them.
Perhaps you caught someone on a bad day, or maybe you started rivet counting their model/s (always guaranteed to get a frosty reception from most people), I don't know, you tell me.

Whilst talking ME that wonderful X Craft you mentioned, the one that won the prestigious award at the ME just over a year ago was the very one sporting the wrong propeller............WHAT A JOKE!!!

Yeah, a gold medal winner- what a joke I know! Tsh, tsh!
I'm sure Alan Poole would be happy to discuss this with you.

Cars...........Contempt!.........Mini or Rolls, it still has to be road worthy.

So if you take your U47 kit and sink it to 100 feet, will it come back up again?
I don't see anything wrong with building the boat to it's operating conditions.
If you want a boat to dive deep, then using a plunger/piston system makes sense, but if you just want to dive your boat a few feet and can accept a small performance compromise then the air system works fine IMHO. Or you can combine the two together, like Lothar Menz.

As for the SubCommittee UK. You are just plain ignorant. Try getting off your backside and doing a little proper reserch and you will answer your own question.

I'll admit to being ignorant regarding the Sub Committee UK!
I've never seen them at a show in the South, so I've never had the opportunity for a chat.
I thought by asking on this board I might get an answer. What's the problem?

It's only babies that need spoon feeding!

...and adults that require answers to questions.

Creative postings. I'm all for it. What started out as a little quip in reply to your un-answered post has been entertaining. However I must point out it's not I that felt threatened over a couple of small prods!

Loaded with sarcasm, not very nice. And why was my post unanswered, noone interested in a sail?

Now do take care and don't forget the innertube repair kit the next time you go sailing!!

Ha, ha thanks for the note of caution, but I use fixed ballast tanks in my models. However don't forget a spare set of piston seals when you go sailing, those piston tanks have been known to spring leaks too.

Andrew
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Postby 80-1053113193 » Fri May 16, 2003 4:00 pm

U99 Supersub wrote:Hi Steve,

Yes I quite willingly sent you the information because you asked and in the sub we were discussing it works. You then went off on a tangent I don't happen to like or agree with because I feel these old design ballast systems are not safe and cannot be justifiably used when there are more modern and safer methods available.

I agree that there are many ways to achieve the goal of a sailing model submarine but surely the prime objective is dependability and safety.

An Engel tank isn't elitist. It's a reasonably inexpensive well engineered ballast tank system that is about as safe as any system available when used with a Engel/Bruggen BTS. For £150 quid you get the tank and operating switch with THREE built in fail safe systems.

If you choose to go down a route that's old and by modern standards unreliable that's your choice. Model submarines are great fun and there is tremendous satisfaction to be gained from building and operating them. I go to the lake, put the boat in the water, sail for upto 2 hours or so then take the boat home via the local, result..........happy as a sand boy! Put your (in my view) sub-standard (heath robinson) boat in the water and you stand a far greater chance of going home with just your boat stand and Tx (that's if you can get it to work). I've seen it happen at a low key model boat club regatta and it's not nice, even when it's not your boat. (the owner wasn't AMS or SC).

The environment that model submarines have to operate in is probably the most hostile that any working model has to endure. Even more so if your lake is at all like my local one. Zero to six foot in about 10 feet, much less in places, then a sheer drop to an average of 35 feet. Don't ever forget you are operating a model in the full size environment!

As for taking sides. Yes I will take sides and defend any moderm ballast system over the pioneering ones every time IF the modern system can be fitted in the boat. Anyone who doesn't is in my opinion is foolhardy.

I will also take sides when it comes to posting on this board. I have every right to post here because I am a paid up member of the SubCommittee and SubCommittee UK.

Andy isn't an SC UK member so what gives him the right to preach on this board to those of us who are members. The Model Engineer Exhibition was mentioned as a show case for the AMS in his last little rant BUT do they sail their boats at the Model Engineer?......NO. Will they share their information freely, like I did with you if you went up to talk to them on their stand?........NO. Would they allow you to post as you have done on this site?........NO. Would they let you sail one of their boats at a regatta?..........NO.

Having a group to go to is great and if Andy seems your sort of guy to learn from/talk to that's fine too. Why not join the SC and the AMS, then over time choose which group you like best.............However until you are a paid up member of the SC and SC UK please do not try the "moderating" bit on this board over something you know very little/nothing about.

Cheers,
Clive.



:laugh:

To U99 Supersub
As a fairly new member to this board but a very experienced model submariner since 1990 and a sole member of the AMS.
I am saddened ro read such political crap, such as you have written, it thought this AMS + Sub Com thing had died out long ago, obviously i was wrong. I thought we were all just modellers enjoying our hobby, also Job in my case.


As for the piston system being elitist, shall i now list the flaws?
As well as the flaws with the compressed air system, you will see they are about equal in values.
As well as every other flaw in the other systems, they ALL have about 50-50 good and bad things, the piston system is NO exeption.

At the end of the day we all have our own way of doing things whether they be technically biased or financially.
What right do you have to say that the AMS are antiquated?

What safety systems do you have in your boat, and what happens if all these fail??
You sink to the bottom, just like the rest of us!!!

I would love to see your boat and inspect it for myself.

Perhaps you would like to come to the Norwich Submarine Day on July 13th, here in Norfolk, not too far from York is it. :)
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Postby Jac » Tue Jan 13, 2004 8:49 am

Could one/all of the UK based folk get in touch in regards to some filming for a TV show in London. It would be great fun and I look forward to hearing from you. Email is [email]jactrickett@objectiveproductions.com.[/email]
cheers
Jac
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