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special Navy Type IIA : januari 2008

Static Submarine modelers unite!

Postby U812 » Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:09 pm

Good Jeff. I will look forward to the report and add this to my 1/72 fleet.

I've never had a better running boat than the Revell Type 7. 4 years now and she's at the lake every other week. Never a leak or problem. so much for leaking bladders.

I'm hoping and so is BigDave that there is the room for our needs. Do you have a length and beam?

And BD. Start thinking.

Thanks men,

Steve
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Postby JWLaRue » Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:55 pm

Hi Steve,

Assuming (!) that this kit is accurate, the LOA would be 22.36 inches (56.8cm) and a maximum beam of 2.23 inches (5.66cm). I have complete confidence in our BD that he can engineer a dive module kit for this hull.

I may have to seriously consider taking my CAD drawing for the 1/32nd Type II and scaling it down to 1/72nd scale and producing some decks........ Would go well with the kit-supplied PE details and turned aluminum periscopes. :)

-Jeff
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Postby U812 » Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:54 am

Yes indeed Jeff. Good thinking.

Thanks,

Steve
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Postby Warpatroller » Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:45 pm

Jeff,

Did you receive your SN IIA yet? I'm curious to hear how the 4 hull pieces fit together, as so many people reported that the SN XXIII hull halves were badly warped. Perhaps they broke the hull down further from 2 pieces to 4 to help avoid the warping problems, or, it could be do to the fact that these kits ARE NOT made from metal molds (like Revell uses). Instead they are made from heat resistant epoxy resin molds, which is why they are called "Short Run" kits. These molds are only suppose to have a production life span of about 3 years and are not as high quality as metal molds. This also means the lifespan of their XXIII molds should be over by sometime this coming summer..

The following is some information on MPM and their molding process:

MPM Production Ltd. was founded in 1990 in Prague and since its foundation has focused on the production and distribution of plastic model kits together with other kits made from additional materials in a variety of model scales and subjects.

In 1990 MPM started to produce and distribute vac-formed kits containing small parts using injection casting technology. The first complete injected kit appeared in 1991, a Bücker Bu181 in 1/72 scale, produced using the so-called “Short Run” technology. MPM was one of the pioneers in the world to introduce the production method of “Short Run” kits and these kits were, and still are, popular with modelers and collectors alike around the world although the technology involved only allows for a small series production run unlike the usual metal (steel) mold injection method. The focus is on the hand made kit pattern being used directly for the mold manufacture with the mold itself being made of special heat resistant epoxy resins. As a result, the quality of the particular batches can sometimes vary as the resultant molds are extremely fragile and the quality cannot compare to the metal types. Despite these drawbacks MPM has, in successive steps, reached the top echelon of kit manufacturers with its “Short Run” kits whilst on several occasions, been awarded and honored at trade exhibitions and model shows throughout the world.

In a move to raise the quality of its kits, MPM introduced production of model kits using the galvanized metal mould injection method.

Gradually several production series have been introduced under the MPM label and are listed below:

MPM - This series is mainly produced using galvanized metal molds with the result that the service life of these moulds is much longer compared to “Short Run” molds and is devoted to aircraft kits.

SPECIAL HOBBY - This series is a popular line of aircraft kits produced using “Short Run” molds and supplemented with photo-etched and resin parts. The service life of these molds is around three years.

SPECIAL NAVY - Another series produced using “Short Run” molds and but concentrating on submarine kits in 1/72nd. scale. The kits are supplemented with photo-etched and resin parts. Note - The XXIII molds will be 3 years old this coming summer of 2008.

SPECIAL ARMOUR - A series produced using galvanized metal molds. The service life of these molds is longer comparing to “Short Run” molds and is focused on AFV.

BEST CHOICE - A series of exclusive model kits intended for top modelers with only a limited number being produced. The kits contain plastic, photo-etched and resin parts and further additions. Each kit contains a numbered certificate of authenticity.

HML - These products are hand made limited run high quality resin kits manufactured in 1/48th., 1/24th., 1/18th., and 1/15th. scales. These kits contain highly detailed resin accessories, white metal and photo-etched parts and vac-formed canopy.

HPH - Products are limited edition, high quality resin kits with fiberglass fuselages and are produced in various scales with highly detailed parts and vac-formed canopy.

ELF series are kits produced by MPM for a Czech customer.

AZUR - Produced in cooperation with our French advisor and patron, are a series of popular aircraft kits produced using “Short Run” molds together with photo-etched and resin parts. The service life of these molds is around three years.

CONDOR - A series focused on aircraft kits produced using galvanized metal molds.

CMK 1/35 - This series is focused on 1/35 scale kits produced using galvanized metal molds.


Steve
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Postby kazzer » Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:02 pm

I have made contact with the manufacturer and am about to place an order.

If you are interested in this boat, please let me know now, as the more I can order, the less the freight will be. I promise you all a good price.
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Postby U812 » Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:12 pm

Yes interested Mike.

Steve
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Postby JWLaRue » Sat Apr 26, 2008 10:06 pm

I received the SN Type II today. Purchased from Models by Mickster but I expect others to get this kit in as well. (I see that Mike Caswell is considering doing so) The price for the kit was $95.00

A quick review of the contents showed a very nicely detailed hull and conning tower. The deck is well detailed, but I am not quite sure that it is as accurate as it should be. As advertised, the kit includes resin and white metal cast parts, some photo etched items, and turned aluminum periscopes. The are some resin parts that are very small. I'm not sure why these weren't done as injection molded parts. (e.g. the deck gun handwheels) The white metal parts are uniformly excellent. For example. the mail deck stanchions have the necessary little holes at the top to allow for stringing the lifelines through. (remember, we're talking 1/72nd scale) The turned 'scopes correctly reflect the search and attack scopes. Nicely done!

(photos tomorrow...promise!)

The instructions are in Polish and English and are mostly isometric drawings of the parts to be assembled in each step. Studying the instructions, this looks to be a straight-forward build.

Since there is some concern.....the four hull pieces look very well formed and not warped. I'll remove them from the sprues tomorrow, temporarily tape them together and see exactly how they look.

The kit is a bit pricey, but this is the first (?) and currently only way to get a reasonably large size Type IIA U-boat model. I wouldn't be surprised if someone (Big Dave, are you listening?) figures out a way to make a dive module kit for this model.

More tomorrow........

-Jeff
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Postby Warpatroller » Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:02 am

Jeff,

How much did Models by Mickster charge you for shipping the kit?

Do the hull halves have alignment pins? I'll await your verdict on the hull alignment and trueness tomorrow.

A few observations I have noticed so far from the limited pictures I have seen:

It was my understanding that Type IIAs and IIBs were originally built with only ONE periscope. Only the IIC and IID were built with both a sky and attack scope. Perhaps some IIAs and IIBs had a second scope added at a later date once the war started? Maybe the IIBs that were sent to the Black Sea for example.

This SN model appears to have VERY BIG (as in tall in height) saddle tanks for being a IIA, its saddle tanks look more like the ones on a IID.. Yet current photos of the Vesikko show that it has fairly tall tanks also from what I recall. The operating range on the IIA was very small and some of the line drawings I have seen have shown a saddle tank that is much shorter in height than the ones on this model kit.. The Germans kept increasing the size of these tanks (in additon to lengthening the hull) with each successive model of the Type II to extend the operating range of the boats and to TRY to improve the boats seaworthiness while running surfaced, which was notoriously bad (this is where the "dugout canoe" nickname came from, along with the small overall size :lol: ). Perhaps someone can clarify whether these tanks as depicted on the model are accurate or not?

The deck gun you refer to should only be a mono-barrel 20mm AA gun. Don't think any Type II had an actual "deck gun" like a VII or IX. Though, it is mounted on the deck, so perhaps that is what you meant by calling it a "deck gun". There seem to have been two different AA gun mounts on the fore deck. A larger can shaped mount and a narrower conical shaped mount. The SN kit has the larger can mount. Furthermore, according to my past readings, most of the six IIAs did not have any guns on the deck at all (at least in 1935/1936). I have only seen a pic of U1 sporting an AA gun on the fore deck, mounted to the smaller conical mount. Again, maybe guns were added to some of these six boats later on..

In general, I think SN used the Finnish Vesikko as their main reference when creating the molds for this model, as opposed to the harder to obtain reference items specific to the actual German Type IIs.

Also, if you could Jeff, give us hull measurements:

OAL = 22.3" ?
Beam = 2.25" ?
Bow Hull Height Max = 3" (tapering to a max stern hull height of 2.7") ?

I got the above measurements from scaling down actual pre-war German drawn Type II plans.

Steve
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Postby raalst » Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:24 am

ordered mine locally (netherlands) a few days ago.
seems not to be available here yet.
Regards,

Ronald van Aalst

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Postby JWLaRue » Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:30 am

Steve,

The plan sets that I have *mostly* show the IIA with two periscopes. Since the Fritz Köhl plans are generally considered to be the most accurate, I'll go with the two scopes unless I find some photos that contradict that. I'll be going through some of my reference books later today as well.

The deck gun I am/was referring to is the 2cm gun on the foredeck. Sorry for the confusion!

The model's hull definitely does not have the saddle tanks as in the IID, though I will also take some measurements from the Köhl plans and figure out what the correct measurements should be for the model. (ratios of things like casing height to visible pressure hull, etc.)

One thing that I have not found solid answers for is exactly how close the Vesikko is to the slightly later first production run of IIA boats. I *think* that they were virtually identical.......?

Those measurements that you'd like.....what basis line are you using for the measurements? Some of my plans use the bottom of the keel and others use the bottom of the pressure hull.

Photos and more coming up later this afternoon.

-Jeff
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Postby Warpatroller » Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:35 pm

Jeff,

I looked at a set of plans drawn up in 1934, and they do show two scopes.. I guess what I read in the past about a single scope on the IIA may have only been in some cases. I have a photo of a IIA in a book, close up of the rear of the tower and I can only see one scope (which looks like the aft scope if there are two) and the loop antenna, can't seem to find evidence of the second forward one , unless it is fully retracted as the base, if there is one, is hidden from view in the photo. These boats are almost like mythological creatures, much misinformation floating around about them.

As far as the Vesikko being identical to the IIA, I don't know about that. For example, the tower on the Vesikko does not really look like the tower on a IIA. The hulls are pretty close in appearence, but not the towers.

I was measuring the hull height from top of deck to bottom of keel, NOT the pressure hull. I had forgotten that my hull height measurements were based on a side view photo of the SN IIA prototype hull. If I base them off this 1934 drawing I have, it should be 3" tall at 1:72 fore to aft along bottom of keel to top of deck. Which is .25" shorter than the same measurement on the Revell VIIs.

Steve
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Postby JWLaRue » Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:46 pm

Okay...some more details.....

The height at the bow measures 3.00". Measured at the conning tower the height is 2.875" (2-7/8 inches). At the stern the height is 2.56".

The LOA looks to be 22.2" with a beam of 2.25".

Here are some photos......

First some shots of the hull:

Image
Image
Image

Next, the detail parts:

Image
Image
Image

Some additional observations from a trial fitting of the hull sections and deck are in order.

There are no alignment pins for the hull sections which has some impact on aligning the port and starboard sections (both bow section and stern section). The characteristic outline of the hull does help in getting everything aligned, but I will most likely add some tabs to ensure a proper alignment when it comes to actually gluing the hull together.

As you can probably see from the photos, the deck sections do not quite fit into the area of the hull where they are intended to fit. It looks like some trimming of the hull where the fore and aft ends of the deck fit needs to be done.

A similar problem exists with the conning tower. There is a depression in the deck where the tower is intended to fit, but the outline of the tower differs slightly from the depression. Right now it's not clear whether trimming the deck or the tower will be the easier solution. Another minor issue with the tower is the tower deck....it's slightly too wide, which means that the tower halves don't meet with the deck in place. (and there are no alignment pins here either)

That's what I was able to accomplish today. I still need to pull some reference materials and compare the model to photos of known Type IIA boats. Hopefully I can get to that tomorrow!

-hope this helps....and please ask any questions that may come up,

Jeff
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Postby Warpatroller » Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:53 am

Thanks for posting those photos Jeff!

Looks like my dimensional estimates were very close to your findings.

I see what you mean about the fitting of the deck and the tower..looks fixable though. When you get a chance, please post some photos of the rest of the injection molded parts and the resin parts. And maybe a picture showing the entire hull, like you have it taped together, but the whole boat from bow to stern in one shot...this way I can stare at it in its entirety for a while, before I make a decision to purchase the kit :shock: lol Looks like a nice little model, but at a Revell GATO price.

Oh yeah, some of those white metal stanchions look bent..it should be fairly easy to straighten them, right? I notice they have some flash that needs to be cut away too. I was hoping they would have supplied white metal propellors, instead of the resin ones. Are those periscopes hollow or solid?
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Postby kazzer » Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:56 am

If you give me the sizes of the props, I'll try to locate some metal ones.

I should have this model in stock shortly
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Postby JWLaRue » Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:22 pm

Here are some additional photos.....the first showing the full starboard side and the second an "aerial" bows-on view.

Image
Image

Those white metal stanchions that look bent are intended to be bent. They're the ones that go around the deck gun, along with the cast railing set.

Periscopes are solid metal. :)

Props are resin and have quite an odd blade pitch....a very aggressive pitch which I believe is quite wrong. The pitch is something like 80-85 degrees! Replacing them with something better would be a good idea. The diameter of the prop is approximately 18.4mm or 0.725 inches.

Also, here are some photos of the parts sprues. I didn't bother photographing the other three sprues since they only have the four hull sections and three deck sections are are now 'empty'.

Image
Image

I also want to address the concern raised about any warping of the parts. The only parts that are ever so slightly warped are the four hull pieces. However the amount of warping is so minor as to not be an issue. For those who are familiar with the Revell Gato hull warp, the Type IIA is practically non-existent.

I'm still not convinced that the deck is correct with respect to where the model represents wood vs. metal. That's going to be part of tonight's research.

-hope this is helping,

Jeff
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