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question reg Kursk color scheme - a Question

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Postby Seawolf » Thu May 25, 2006 11:56 am

Hi all,
I wanted to paint 1/350 Kursk from Zvesda.
Wonder what color scheme to used. Some present the subs with all blackish /dark gray tone.

some with the red andy foul lower hull.
but looking at the small picture from BBC's and other source of the lifted Kursk in dry dock, it seems the lower hull color is light gray.

any info of it? and also, what color should be used for the bow sonar dome?
thanks guys, real appreciated.
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Postby Wayne Frey » Fri May 26, 2006 6:18 am

email me.
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Postby Gerwalk » Mon May 29, 2006 10:57 am

That's an interesting question. We debated this before:
http://www.subcommittee.com/cgi-bin....l=kursk

But nevertheless is good to revive that discussion.
The photos of Kursk in dry dock (after the accident) show a light brownish-grey coloration below the centerline and a black or dark grey up. (check here: http://rpf.ru/txt/04/04/22-001001.html)

In this close-up of the brownish-grey area you can see fouling attached to the hull and a hint that it was painted originally with a red antifouling paint :
http://rpf.ru/txt/04/04/22-0100019.jpg

These paints ussually turn into a brownish-grey after expossure to sea water for a while.

There is a photo of an Oscar with the lower hull painted black too. But: this phot could have been taken before the antifouling paint was applied over the (black rubber)anechoich tiles.

As for the sonar bow dome: I say it was also painted red. I've seen a photo of the bow of Kurks being launched and it clearly had a red color below the centerline. This photo shows only the lower torpedo hatches located below the waterline and adjacent areas. There are photos of another Oscar being launched that clearly shows the underside of the bow red (but be aware that's not Kursk!)

The missile hatches are black (external) and red (internal). The missile doors were black inside (not green as the kit manufacturer suggests). This black could be toned down a bit and in some photos appears brownish or a tone similar to Nato Black (Tamiya)

Just in case you didn't noticed it: the Zvedzda model is not a bad model but it has a lot of errors. The hull shape is not correct, it has just one vertical stern plane instead of two, the propeller blade tips are pointing to the front while they should be pointing to the back, the water intakes are very simplified versions of the real thing, etc. See Kevin's thread for all these details.

This is my opinion based on a few photos. It would be interesting to openly discuss this matter here. Anyone?
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Postby Gerwalk » Sat Jun 03, 2006 4:47 pm

Hey! Nobody wants to discuss this? C'mon! :;):
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Postby Mandrake » Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:20 pm

Gerwalk wrote:Hey! Nobody wants to discuss this? C'mon! :;):

Okay, I'll bite.

My belief is that all modern Russian subs (certainly late 70s onwards) had standard black upper hulls, dark red undersides (some distance below the waterline) and in most if not all cases a white line along the waterline.

As for the bow sonar domes, well on some photos it would certainly appear that some subs had these section in white/light grey, pressumably their factory finish. However it does not seem possible to determine exactly how widespread this is, or even if this is how they would be put to water. I have never seen an Oscar SSGN with anything other than red bow sonar though. It is also possible, in my mind atleast, that these sections even if over painted in red may react differently to the rest of the hull with prolonged water exposure and thus colour deviations occur.

Well thats my thoughts on the matter......should spark some discussion I hope!
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Postby Mandrake » Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:28 am

Gerwalk wrote:Hey! Nobody wants to discuss this? C'mon! :;):

You're right, what do you have to do to get some discussion going????

Okay then all Russian subs were actually yellow, discuss!
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Postby Gerwalk » Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:03 am

Mandrake,
good to know someone want to discuss something in these forums (aside technical problems on RC boats).

The only photo that contradicts what you said is the one I mentioned before where the lower hull appears black:
[img=http://img434.imageshack.us/img434/8204/t1282dm.th.jpg]

This one used to be on submarine.id site but I can't find it.

BTW: there are several mentions to lower hull colors being red, green or grey but I have never seen a photo of a Russian sub with the lower hull in other color but red (or the brownish-grey color that is possibly a deteriorated red)
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Postby Mandrake » Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:46 am

Gerwalk,

I can promise you I will never ask about a technical problem on an RC Boat :;):

Interesting picture, though I'm not entirely sure what I'm looking at because it doesn't quite match any profiles I can think of. It is however rather small, particularly when you consider the relative size of the buildings/windows in behind it.

I should of mentioned that I think there are some exceptions to my previously mentioned rule, namely test/prototype and perhaps specilised submarines, which is what we are probably looking at here. However for operational fleet subs (SSN/SSGN/SSBN) I stand by my previous statement.

Have also heard the green lower hulls, particularly in reference to the Alpha, but like you have never actually seen any photographic proof.




Edited By Mandrake on 1149519590
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Postby Gerwalk » Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:34 pm

Actually I'm not sure if that's an Oscar...
The bow is too steep and as you said it doesn't fit well with the known plans of this class.

The green color: There are many color figures of WWII russian boats with green hulls. The L-2 (WWII) museum sub has it's hull painted green too.

There is a freshly painted museum Foxtrot photo showing a green hull too :
http://submarine.id.ru/galery/t1150.shtml

The model displayed at the Juliett sub museum in Providence, RI, has it's hull painted green.

So, green seems to be a hull color that was used in the past. Wayne says that some Alfas were also painted that color during for some time.
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Postby Gerwalk » Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:41 pm

Sorry,
I've found the original source for the black Oscar photo, it is also from submarine.id but in the miscelaneous section. Babelfish translation:
"the 25- meter mock-up- prototype of the boat of 949 projects, which underwent tests first on CHF, then on Ladoga. The mouth of black creek in Sevastopol in the territory of base "Vtorchermet"."

It's a big model of an Oscar.
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Postby Seawolf » Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:11 am

Sorry guys, it's been a while since I started the question, got a big help from Wayne - thanks Wayne.

I didn't notice there's an interesting discussion goin' on :)

the bottom line is, upper hull for Kursk (the moment before she sunk), is black and the bottom is red?
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Postby Mandrake » Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:27 pm

the bottom line is, upper hull for Kursk (the moment before she sunk), is black and the bottom is red?


All evidence seems to suggest that yes, ableit a rather weathered red in places perhaps. Still some uncertainty over the bow sonar colour, but on the few available photos of other Oscars it does not seem to differ so that would be the safe way to go.

HTH
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