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Hull kits for Dave Welch's WTC's possible - If there's enough interest

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Postby expfcwintergreen » Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:53 pm

That's what I'm afraid of Wayne. Gonna send my PARCHE out to tap Steve's phone lines. Need to know when he starts launching those beasts....

:laugh:
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Postby Sub culture » Sun Aug 07, 2005 7:45 am

Has anyone ever produced a hull for the November class?

Andy
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Want to dive your boat in crystal clear water? Then you had better Dive-in- http://www.diveintomodelsubmarines.co.uk
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Postby Wayne Frey » Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:25 am

I belive Lyle may have been working on one.
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Postby ThorDesign » Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:14 pm

I have a pattern for a 1/96 November. It has gathered an inch of dust from sitting in the rafters of the shop. I shelved the project along with a few others when the model submarine market died in 1998.
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Postby Sub culture » Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:56 pm

Time to get the feather duster out, methinks!

Andy
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Want to dive your boat in crystal clear water? Then you had better Dive-in- http://www.diveintomodelsubmarines.co.uk
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Postby U812 » Sun Aug 07, 2005 4:25 pm

Matt,

I agree with Andy there. Interest in subs are on the rise I'm finding. Correct me if I'm wrong but it sure seems that way to me.

Steve
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Postby ThorDesign » Sun Aug 07, 2005 7:09 pm

The market almost disappeared in 1997-1998 and has never even come close to the levels we saw from 1990-1997. To compound the problem the high quality kits have now fallen pretty much out of favor with newcomers, which used to be 50% of sales, and they now go for the vacuum formed kits like the robbe,dumas and krick kits. (I do not count the SubTech kits along with the former mentioned kits. The SubTech kits are in a class all by themselves and are, in my opinion, a MUCH better choice than the above mentioned kits). I was hoping that is might prove as a spring board to folks moving up into the high quality composite kits after they were finished with the plastic kits, but it never did happen. After 4 years of beating our brains out with kit donations, advertisement and so on we had to stop throwing good money after bad and limited production.

I certainly have not seen anything in the last 5-6 years that would indicate an increase of interest of any kind. The SC subscription level is stagnant, as it has been for many years.

I think kids these days would rather be playing in their girlfriends panties or pushing a dumbstick around on a playstation game. Models are too much work for most kids in this new society of brainless, instant gratification...




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Postby U812 » Sun Aug 07, 2005 7:29 pm

Matt,

With your last statement I couldn't agree more. If they wear their hats backwards and they think rap is music then how the #### are they going to put one foot in front of the other let alone build a model.

My kits BTW will not be ABS but epoxy. Still I hope to sell a few and have some fun.

Well put Matt, but lets hope it improves.

Steve
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Postby petn7 » Sun Aug 07, 2005 8:09 pm

ThorDesign wrote:I think kids these days would rather be playing in their girlfriends panties or pushing a dumbstick around on a playstation game. Models are too much work for most kids in this new society of brainless, instant gratification...

No offence, but I'd rather be having sex than building a model submarine and I don't think that's something to be ashamed about or is due to wanting "brainless, instant gratification."

You know why I haven't bought any of your kits, Matt? Because they're so big. If i'm going to spend $500+ on a model, there's no way I'm driving that thing in a lake. Also, I like clear water. Basically I want to be able to fit my sub in a photocopier paper box and run it at the local pool.

You guys keep up with the whole "micro" craze? I was there from the beginning with the whole indoor heli craze. I remember buying an Ikarus Piccolo and within a few years, you had the Robin, Dragonfly, Hornet, Hornet CP, Hornet II, Piccolo CP, Piccolo Pro, etc. What was once a small portion of the overall R/C helicopter hobby led by mainly DIYers, became a brand new helicopter class with many people and new manufacturers. Same thing has recently occurred with micro cars, trucks, boats, and planes.

Just a thought :D
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Postby ThorDesign » Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:07 pm

The smaller scales have so much less appeal to the market out there that I do not think that I would ever recover the thousands of $$$ and many hundreds of hours required to make a kit like that. The guys in the SC would not even spring for $135.00 correction kit for that crappy Trumpeter Seawolf kit, so why would they drop $300.00 for a museum scale model of the same scale? I have found that guys who go cheap are cheap, and typically do not spend the money to make it worth it to cater to them. No insult intended, just business.

Submarines are a tiny little market, micro subs are even a smaller subset of that. All this stuff in handbuilt, which means it is not cheap. You just admitted that you would not pay $500.00 to put your boat in the lake. Well, the average Pemit kit takes me a minimum of 20 hours to make and stick in a box. Take materials out of that and divide by the time required to make it, plus recover the thousands of $$$ in tooling and time to make the patterns...I am making about $5.00/hr. Sorry no thanks, let Trumpeter do that. I developed a 1/150 scale STURGEON a couple of years ago and put a notice out on the board that I was planning on releasing it if there was enough interest. Guess how many responses I got...ZERO.....

On another front, tiny submarines typically behave very eratic and jumpy. They bob around like a bathtub toy. The are not very realistic in handling at all. Scale effects are huge on small watercraft. Micro planes are a bit different story in a much different medium. Not really a fair comparison.

Regardless, I gave up the notion of making any money in this game about 5 years ago. I am ashamed it took me that long to figure it out. I know most of the other vendors feel the same way. Now, I do this when I have time, and ONLY when I have time. My full time job pays me much more than what I make on subs per hour.

I have been producing kits on & off since 1991, I have had lots of folks tell me they are too small. You are the first to tell me they are too big...

Anyway, I am glad you like the small stuff. It adds variety.

Now go play in your girls panties, make sure you turn the game off first...women hate that.... :D




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Postby U812 » Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:19 pm

I don't know Matt. I think micro airplanes behave very badly. Can't stand them really. Maybe I should sell one of my big jets to some sucker and by one of your kits.

Anyone want an F-15?

LOL!

Steve
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Postby petn7 » Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:08 am

ThorDesign wrote:The smaller scales have so much less appeal to the market out there that I do not think that I would ever recover the thousands of $$$ and many hundreds of hours required to make a kit like that. The guys in the SC would not even spring for $135.00 correction kit for that crappy Trumpeter Seawolf kit, so why would they drop $300.00 for a museum scale model of the same scale? I have found that guys who go cheap are cheap, and typically do not spend the money to make it worth it to cater to them. No insult intended, just business.

Submarines are a tiny little market, micro subs are even a smaller subset of that. All this stuff in handbuilt, which means it is not cheap. You just admitted that you would not pay $500.00 to put your boat in the lake. Well, the average Pemit kit takes me a minimum of 20 hours to make and stick in a box. Take materials out of that and divide by the time required to make it, plus recover the thousands of $$$ in tooling and time to make the patterns...I am making about $5.00/hr. Sorry no thanks, let Trumpeter do that. I developed a 1/150 scale STURGEON a couple of years ago and put a notice out on the board that I was planning on releasing it if there was enough interest. Guess how many responses I got...ZERO.....

On another front, tiny submarines typically behave very eratic and jumpy. They bob around like a bathtub toy. The are not very realistic in handling at all. Scale effects are huge on small watercraft. Micro planes are a bit different story in a much different medium. Not really a fair comparison.

Regardless, I gave up the notion of making any money in this game about 5 years ago. I am ashamed it took me that long to figure it out. I know most of the other vendors feel the same way. Now, I do this when I have time, and ONLY when I have time. My full time job pays me much more than what I make on subs per hour.

I have been producing kits on & off since 1991, I have had lots of folks tell me they are too small. You are the first to tell me they are too big...

Anyway, I am glad you like the small stuff. It adds variety.

Now go play in your girls panties, make sure you turn the game off first...women hate that.... :D

Fair enough. You need to do what you can to make money. I'm not going to blame you for that. As for the $135 Trumpeter Seawolf correction kit, I wouldn't have bought it because 1/144 is still too big for me.

As for comparisons between micro subs and planes/helis, you're probably right. Just didn't want anyone to think small is bad and automatically doesn't sell. I really don't care if a smaller sub does't handle as realistically as a larger version because frankly...they both aren't the real things. Also, driving the sub is secondary to me. Yeah, I enjoy it, but the real fun comes in the designing, building, and experimenting. That's the main reason I left the micro helicopter hobby...too much time flying and not enough tinkering (unless I crashed).
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