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SSN21 Plans - looking for Thor plans

Have any sub 'stuff' to sell or trade?

Postby Feet Wet » Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:20 pm

Anyone with a set of Thor SSN21 Seawolf plans that is willing to sell or loan for enlargement , please contact me.
Seems Thor will not make his plans available without a kit
Jonathan Eno
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Postby ThorDesign » Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:48 pm

Jonathan,

What you said above is simply hogwash! I offered to email you the complete set of prints. In order to remain profitable, I have had to dramatically streamline my process. If you had the software to read the files, I would have gladly sent them to you. You did not, so I am unable to help you at this time. Unfortunately my time does not allow me to spend 2-3 hours to accomodate your request, which is what it would take me to run downtown and get a copy made, find a mailing tube, and take it to the post office to mail it. Yes, you offered to pay for it, but I cannot charge you enough to cover what that 2-3 hours of my time is worth right now. I am absolutely buried right now and do not have time for this kind of stuff. I am very sorry, but it is the absolute truth. That is why Atomic Subs is handling my line for me. He has complete kits only. If I can help you in a few minutes I am always glad to take time to do so. Sadly, this time was not one of them. You will not find enough information on those prints, anyway, to build the propulsor. They will be worthless to you other than for general, external arrangement.

This is the exact reason why we no longer sell electronics or hardware seperately. I cannot afford to sell them! No one will pay the price for what I need to charge to be profitable on these small items. You cannot make money in this business selling small quantities of $10.00 or less items. All of that will be included with our kits here very shortly, but it will not be available seperately. Sorry, but that is reality in this business right now.
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Postby JWLaRue » Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:36 am

Matt,

What software (file format) are the drawings in? I might be able to make a conversion to a more common format....?

-Jeff
Rohr 1.....Los!
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Postby ThorDesign » Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:20 pm

Jeff,

They are in an autocad 2000i format. If you can help me out here I would appreciate it. Mr. Eno has expressed his unhappiness with me, and I would still like to help him out if we can.
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Postby M. Munger » Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:52 pm

Jonathan:

I have several copies of the "Thor Design" SSN-21 Seawolf plans in 1:96 from when I produced this kit, $20.00 postage included.

Matt




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Postby bcliffe » Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:58 pm

What goes down, must come up .... eventually !
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Postby ThorDesign » Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:17 pm

Matt,

Lee Upshaw has all of the Seawolf molds that your boats were. No other molds for that boat exist outside of Lee's shop.

The new SSN21 Seawolf masters were CNC machined by myself and Scribed by none other than Dave Merriman. I did the CAD work and the NC program, appendages and the molds. Please take a look at any of the new Seawolf models and you will see that they are quite different from the model that was sold to you right down to every detail. No models were ever produced by me after the molds were sold to you. If you would like pictures or any other evidence of the new patterns, molds, or plans( which are also differerent) please let me know and I will be most glad to send you whatever information you like to put this issue to rest. Dave and I are working up an article for the SCR on pattern building from the latest effort which began in 2001.

I had passed along to Mr. Eno that the Deep Sea Design plans were not quite accurate in some areas due to the fact that they were done in the absence of hard information long before SSN21 was launched. I was not slandering Greg's work in the least. At the time it was an astounding piece of work! Since then a lot more public information has been released and I am sure Greg will update his plans when he gets around to it. Until then, they are a very good resource from which to start.
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Postby ThorDesign » Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:24 pm

Below Mr. Eno has expressed his opinion and made the suggestion that I close my shop down. For the little bit of money that I make in this hobby compared to the mountain of crap I have to put up with from individuals such as Mr. Eno ,I think I will follow his suggestion and Dave Merriman's lead and announce my retirement from the business. The headache of dealing with this kind of moronic bantering is not worth it. I spent almost 2 hours this morning converting the plans to a .bmp file and sent them off to Mr. Eno so he got what he wanted and he still persists in complaining and whining. I will be transferring the possession of the ThorDesign Product line to Atomic Subs for continued production. I can hear the "yeah I told you he would quit" already. Well there is a big difference between quiting and retiring. Oh, well...I can't make everyone happy. This is not a kneejerk reaction to one individual. This has been an extremely trying year in the hobby for us and this has been building for quite some time. I know life is full of nuts and strange people but that will about do it for me. As Mr. Eno says below I have not contributed anything to this hobby anyway, so why bother?



Mr. Thor,
That's quite alright that your will not share . As far as I can see Gregg's plan are fine, As far as what you've done for this hobby,,,well it seems to me that you owe ALL of that to those who have made the masters for your hulls, done the scribing detail on your hulls, and produced your hulls. In
fact your "kits" aren't even kits, just hulls.And no I've not bought one of your products and now never will. And it was you who said that you did not have time to sell individual components. I will not get in a pissing match with someone who has not contributed anything original to this hobby.
Jonathan Eno




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Postby Atomic Subs » Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:56 pm

Jonathan,

You have made me so made, I can hardly think straight! WHO ARE YOU TO CALL MATT TO TASK ON HIS BUSINESS! Why can't you do your own research needed to complete your model. You mention, "sharing" well, that’s right it, its Matt's info to share with whom he wants. You have no idea how busy Matt is building his consulting business. It's not like Matt is at home waiting by the phone to take orders for model submarines. DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT SELLING MODEL SUBMARINES CAN SUPPORT A FAMILY OF 5 HERE IN AMERICA? H3LL NO!!!! This is a freaking' hobby...and remember that! Matt has brought together talent to create the model subs for those of you in the hobby! It's no different than a General Contractor building a house, bring all the trades together to complete a project.

So, Jonathan Eno, you now have the privilege of being the "straw that broke the camels back"

Matt's closing up shop.

You know what Jonathan, hope you’re happy.

Lyle
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Postby Ron » Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:00 pm

Matt,

I have to date never purchased a product from you. But your
articles, web site and shared information has been a help to me and many others. It is extremely unfortunate that this hobby will now lose another source of product and support.
As in many things in life it always seems that the group
suffers for the ignorace of a few.

Ron Karpiej
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Postby stevel14 » Tue Jun 29, 2004 5:43 pm

Matt,

What Ron has written above is almost word for word what I would have said except that I would have used 'stupidity' and 'arrogance' instead of 'ignorance.' My other comments for Mr. Eno would only end up getting my posting deleted.

You will be missed by the rest of us.

Steve Labmeier
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Postby EricPW8818 » Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:23 pm

I will concur 100% that Matt has done leaps and bounds for this hobby. His products and services are top notch. When I used to an annoyance on these boards as I got my feet wet in this "HOBBY", Matt helped me out on numerous occasions. It does seem that we get some awfully cranky people on these boards and in this club. We cant take either of these for granted.This is the most organized group I have been a part of. Enjoy the hobby, and the people who are willing to dedicate time so other can too!
My 2.3 cents!

Eric
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Postby DrDave » Tue Jun 29, 2004 7:36 pm

I for one have purchased many kits and things form Matt Thor from my first boat on . I have dealt with Matt and found him to be very honest in his dealings and to go the extra mile for his customers. No matter how much you try in the business world even including the medical profession there are people who are not happy with anything or cannot understand the basics of everday life which makes it hard on the individual trying to make a business run. I understand why Matt wants to retire as I finally got out of the medical field and went into teaching because of all the garbage. Matt has contributed to this hobby in the same ways as other master craftsmen have by making and delveloping fantastic kits for us that are not able to scratch build the boats we want. I do not believe for an instant that Matt refused to offer you the plans. If you do not have the proper software for him to download you the plans, that is not his problem. Find another source without bad mouthing him online. Matt !!!! There is no way you can please everyone no matter how hard you try ... Dr Dave
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Postby Feet Wet » Tue Jun 29, 2004 7:59 pm

Well, Coming from an arrogant,stupid,ignorant straw: let me staten out some miss quotes and deleted e-mails.
First, this episode started with my attempt to locate Seawolf plans that the Navy has seen fit not to release(no reason why they should). It has been said that I did not bother to do research, well not so. I could find 2 commercially available plans for SSN21, Gregg Sharpe's ,which I'd already ordered, and Thor's. Thor's website directed me to Atomic Subs, who informed me that Thor's policy was that they, Atomic Subs,, not sell anything but complete kits. OK. So I approached Thor.
Contrary to what has been suggested I have offered to buy any plans available.
Mr Thor offered to send me a copy in CAD format. I don't have CAD abd am not about to purchase a program for a set of plans. Futher I was informed that that expense and time,3-4 ,to have a set of plans reproduced was not worth it. It was also during these PRIVATE e-mails that Mr Thorsaid that his compeitors plans were not accurrate. These communications were conducted off the SC board because I did not think it was anyone else's business. Mr Thor apparently has felt otherwise, however he should post all the messages he sent, not just those he feels he can edit to his benefit.
As for causing Mr. Thor to "close shop" as stated by his distributor Atomic Subs, HOGWASH! If I am the "straw" that broke the Camel's back, then I must be in good company with many other straws.
I have never asked for anything for free. Mr. Thor is said to be running a business, well supplying replacement parts/plans or whatever is part of the business. Cusyomer service takes many forms, be it warranty, or cost replacement.
Many suppliers in this hobby bend over backwards to help us, Skip Asay@ Subtech, Matt Munger, the list goes on.
If Mr. Thor wants me to be his scapegoat so he can close shop, so be it: but knowing his track record I'm sure You fans of his will see him back soon.
Jonathan Eno
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Postby ThorDesign » Tue Jun 29, 2004 8:54 pm

Mr. Eno,

Here are the emails you and I have exchanged. Please tell me where I have edited them or mis-quoted you, which is pure BS. I do not know what your last one said because I deleted it without opening it. Please feel free to post any messages I may have missed here.

Since when is it your business to write my business plan and tell me what I have to do? Another thing, Greg Sharp is not a competitor. I guess you have not noticed that I USE HIS PLANS IN MOST OF MY KITS!!! Oh, thats right you have not bought anything from me nor do you intend to. As I wrote you earlier, I am glad you have not. As much of a pain in the butt as you have been over these plans I can't imagine what a pain you would be with a kit. Others can go ahead and sell small items. My business and my schedule do not allow me to. How many times do I need to repeat that to you???

Your are not the scapegoat, you were the straw. I am retiring from this business because I get less crap from people that I do $100,000 worth of business than I do from people like you who want a $20.00 item and get overly demanding and whiny and down right boligerant. I own those drawings and they are supplied in my kits only. They are not for you to buy seperately and blow up to make your own boat. What part of that do you not understand??? I am not in the position right now supply you with a hard print. You, sir, are the one modifying things. I never said you would not pay for them. I fully acknowlege that. I said I could not charge you enough for it to make it worth my while. Do you want to pay $300.00 for a set of prints. If I do them singly that is what it would cost you as my time is taken up on other projects. I cannot justify right now spending 3 hours of my time, as I repeated to you earlier to go run and get a copy made, stop by office depot and get a mailing tube, and then run across town to the post office. That is why I had to change my business model. As you so brilliantly pointed out, I should not be in business. So, I guess you are right.

Yes, Jonathan, you are in excellent company! You fit right in with the guy who threatened to cave my face in at a Subron meet this summer If I showed up because he could not read the written instructions or figure out how to follow a link on the internet to instructions with lots of big colorful pictures and really small words.

You are in great company with a man who has threatened to shoot me point blank in a parking lot if I dared show up at the California Regatta because he thinks he owns me since he spent $500.00 with me and again he could not read instructions or follow verbal instructions over the phone after spending litterally dozens of hours with him trying to help him and he went ahead and did what I told him NOT to do. He ruined his kit and expects me to send him a free replacement. This person is a candidate for the darwin award.

You are in great company with the creep from Illinois who keeps calling at 3:00 am in the morning threatening my family because I will not take the time to drive to Illinois while I am out on the road and spend a weekend with him to teach him how to do epoxy work so he can go into production with his own kit. This one has been turned over to the authorities.

You are in great company with the man who drove over from the West Coast on his way to the East Coast, showded up on my doorstep unannounced, and beat on my door at 9:30 PM at night on a Sunday night wanting to see my shop and then kicked my door in when I told him I did not have time to take him on a tour as I was leaving early the next morning to go to work in Texas. He left screaming obscenities at me and thowing gravel at my Wife and 3 Children while they looked out of their bedroom windows.


You are in great company with the freaking pervert from Los Angeles who spams me with all of the sicko kiddy and Homosexual porn. How do I know it is a SC member, because he uses the username Seawolf and my last name as a password. On others he uses portions of my home address. This dude is sick and the SC officers were absolutely outstanding in helping me shut this down earlier this year.

You fit right in with the guy who ordered an electronic device on one day and then a couple of days later is mad because it had not shown up becuase I did not send it next day air, even though he never mentioned he wanted it sent out that way. I guess I have to read minds in this business, as well. Then he cancels his order after it has been shipped and filed a stop payment with his credit card company. He complained that the words on my policies page were too hard to read so it is my fault. Then, he orders a circuit from SubTech and tells me how great Skip's little unit is, which it is by the way, and tells me what a piece of junk mine is and cannot touch my competitors quality or response. Oops! I guess he should have read the text in the order line where it says that our products are manufactured for us by SubTech!



These are the straws Jonathan, and yes, you are one of them. Congratulations!!!


I can go on here, but I am sure, even you at this point understands...


Without further ado, our exchange...

From: Jonathan Eno

To: matt@thordesign.com
CC:
Date: 06/29/04 01:25 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Plans
Attachments:

Well at least I don't stoop to your level. I look forward to posting all
further on the SC board. Let the rest of the hobby see your true colors
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Thor" <matt@thordesign.com>
To: <jeno@hypernet.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 1:49 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Plans


I look forward to selling nothing to such an ignorant moron as yourself!


-----Original Message-----
From: "Jonathan Eno" <jeno@hypernet.com>
To: "Matt Thor" <matt@thordesign.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:44:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Plans


Mr. Thor,
That's quite alright that your will not share . As far as I can see Gregg's
plan are fine, As far as what you've done for this hobby,,,well it seems to
me that you owe ALL of that to those who have made the masters for your
hulls, done the scribing detail on your hulls, and produced your hulls. In
fact your "kits" aren't even kits, just hulls.And no I've not bought one of
your products and now never will. And it was you who said that you did not
have time to sell individual components.
I will not get in a pissing match with someone who has not contributed
anything original to this hobby.
Jonathan Eno
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Thor" <matt@thordesign.com>
To: <jeno@hypernet.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: Plans


Jonathan,

When have I ever slandered other peoples work??? Greg's work is inaccurate
because they are old and out dated and he has not had the time, like me, to
update them. That does not mean that they are junk!!! Greg is a very close
personal friend of mine and has been a great help to me.

This is another reason why I do not do "favors" like this. All I get is
grief!

I guess you have not been paying attention as to what is going on in this
hobby. NOBODY is making any money right now. We have to do what we have to
do. Thanks for your suggestions though. If you would have purchased a SSN21
kit from me in the past, I would have sent you a new set free of charge,
just like replacement parts for the kit. This is not the case with you,
though. I do not stock plans or kits any longer. I make a large run of kits
each year in January. When they are gone, they are gone.

Matt
-----Original Message-----
From: jeno@hypernet.com
To: matt@thordesign.com
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 08:04 -0400
Subject: Plans

Email Generated by the SubCommittee Ikonboard

ThorDesign,

This e-mail has been sent from Feet Wet via the SubCommittee message forum.

(http://www.subcommittee.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi)

-------------------------------------------------

Mr Thor,
I did receive your offer to send me plans of your pumpjet. I also
understood that it would do me little if any good due to the lack of detail,
however in the same breath youalso said that Gregg Sharpe's plan were
inaccurate. I took that to mean that your GA plans were more accurate and
therefore I wished to see a set.
If your financial operating margin is so small that you can not afford to
sell indivdual parts, be they plans or replacement parts to your kit
customers, than I suggest that,A) you get out of the business, or B) stop
slandering other people's work when you can not prove your own position.
I purposely send this to you because I don't think the SC site is the
place to solve these problems, but I am willing to air them there if you
wish!
Jonathan Eno

-------------------------------------------------

Please note, the SubCommittee, Inc. cannot be held responsible for the
content of this e-mail.




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