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a few questions related to the typ VII

Static Submarine modelers unite!

Postby JC Carbonel » Thu Jan 01, 2004 1:59 pm

Hello

I have "attacked" Revell's big box but as I am no expert I have a few questions :

1- underwater hull : red or black-grey ? Many sources indicate a red hull with a black oil-line but revell says no oil-line and dark grey. Is there any wartime colour pix to settle the debate (the few bw pix showing dry-docked subs seem to suggest Revell is right ?)

2- a few wartime colour pix show a yellow band around the conning tower : what is the meaning of this band ?

3- it seems the late-war ships were darker than the earlier model (like if the "black-grey" of the hull had been painted overall) . Is that correct ?

4- I found a pix of a typ IX with open torpedo tubes and this shows that beside the opening slits in the hull there are also opening tube door proper. Is that also applicable to the typ VII (I would say yes because I cannot see how the hull panels can be closed watertight ...)

That's all for today

thanks for your help

JCC
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Postby sam reichart » Thu Jan 01, 2004 3:55 pm

1. lots of discussion always around this one. Everyone sees the red color done in "U-Boats in Action" and assumes it is factual. Meanwhile, others state no boat ever went out in primer red. Paint it how you like it. Either argument has its defenders. Shouldn't it be about what you like too?

2. Yellow bands on U Boats denoted boats for training Flotillas. Mike Dory paints just about every R/C U Boat he owns with this type of ID stripe. It's different, looks nice, and may help visibility for R/C boats.

3. Most will argue that the dark grey is the same for type VIIs...search these forums and you will find many references to the correct "light grey" and "dark grey" color discussions.

4.What you have surmised is correct. There were tubes behind the outer shutters, like the IXs. Some of the books on UBoats actually have some decent photos of the inner tubes...(vom original for the Type XXIII comes to mind. shows how they alined the tubes with a type of "jig"...)

hope this helps...
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Postby JC Carbonel » Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:48 am

Thank you for the reply !
This will help me a lot.
Actually two more questions "surfaced" in the mean time :

1) what is the story behind the "Vache qui rit" insigna ? La Vache qui rit is a famous cream-cheese brand here in France but I can't see the link between cheese and sub ?

2) what is the object that looks like communal waterhose in a recess at the lower front of the tower of a typ VII ?

3) I am completely mixed up in regard to deck shapes. Together with Revell biggie I am also doing Heller's mini (1/400). Heller's give options for a tower with douple-step winter garden and expanded flak. It also features four cupolas at the extreme bow of the deck which I have seen described as lifeboat containers (?). The question is I have seen desriptions of VII/41 with the enlargement of the deck being transfered from infront of the tower (for the gun) to right at the level of the tower.
The ship with deck enlarged at gun [deleted!] level and with the containers is listed as just typ VIIC in a big book called "the U-boat" which I have . And I am really puzzled because I have also seen the label "VII configuration 1944" applied to this variant. Which label exactly should I put on my model ??? (I know the configuration is correct because in the "In Action" there is a pix of a ship with just this config ...

Thank you

JCC
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Postby sam reichart » Fri Jan 02, 2004 9:43 am

JC-
Can't help you on the first one- but I know a few members have a book that shows all the insignias for the UBoats- there may be an explanation there.

I believe your describing the "speaktube" - it looks like a funnel, and in pictures is actually quite a bit higher than the Revell model shows. I believe it was used to communicate with crew below the tower. Also in front of the tower was a speed indicator...although I don't know if the speed of the boat could be controlled from here, or just shown. I'm sure there's an expert out there that could answer that one.

Your 3rd question(s)- yes, the four containers in front of the tower were for storing life rafts. Things got so dicey for the U Boats that they were probably added to try to increase the survival rate of the crew in the event of an attack. There were many variations on Type VII configurations, addition of the Atlantic bow, and later variants of conning towers- including adding Flak, doubles, quads, Flak platforms in front of the conning tower, machine guns, etc. etc.

Additionally, you have to be careful on some models, since they may or may not be correct according to plan....Revell's famous "U 505" designation on a Type VII U Boat comes to mind. I don't know about the Heller kit, but your best bet is to get your hands on some more reference- Anatomy of the Ship- Type VII, vom original zum modell - type VII are two decent ones (there are more...!) for specifics about the boat you're building.

The later in the war it got, the more the Type VIIs changed- more armor around the tower, more armament, more radar antenna, less tower decorations or heralding. There are a few instances of U Boats that retained the 8.8 along with the extended wintergartens, but the generally 8.8 was deleted with the addition of the extended conning towers.

Hope that helps some. There are a lot more knowledgeable people on specifics of the UBoat. Also, make sure you visit the premier U Boat site- www.uboat.net

cheers,
Sam
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Postby JWLaRue » Fri Jan 02, 2004 1:46 pm

JC,

You are referring to the U-69, correct?

The story goes something like.....

After Prien's successful attack at Scapa Flow, the 7th U-Flotilla decided to adopt the symbol used on the U-47 as the symbol for the entire flotilla. This was communicated to flotilla headquarters in writing, but did not include any details of what the U-47 symbol looked like.

Since no one was around who knew what the "Bull of Scapa Flow" symbol looked like, one of the officers of the U-69 tasked with adding this new symbol to his boat's conning tower went in search of 'model' to base it on. He found a package from a well-known French cheese....which had a laughing cow on it.

The officer handed the package artwork to a worker at the shipyard with instructions to paint such a figure on the boat. When he returned he found that the worker had faithfully reproduced not only the exact figure of the cow, but the words as well.

With that the "Laughing Cow of Lorient" was born.

(from memory, based on reading Hogel's "U-boat Emblems of Workd War II 1939-1945)

-Jeff
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Postby raalst » Fri Jan 02, 2004 4:14 pm

Hi,
Your waterhose thinghy :
- assume you mean it is on the outside of the tower,
pointing upward, right ?
- if so, i believe it is the conductor for the antenna.
on detail photos you always see a small wire from
the antenna leading to this thing.
- the molding of the part in the revell box does it
no credit. I am planning to drill it out and scratchbuild
it myself, to get the orientation right.
(in the kit it is pressed on the side of the tower due
to the molding process)

while we're at it : anybody know what is the function
of the other 2 holes in the outside front of the
conning tower ? bullhorns ?
The germans call the things "Typhone".




Edited By raalst on 1073074630
Regards,

Ronald van Aalst

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Postby JWLaRue » Fri Jan 02, 2004 5:20 pm

Ronald,

If I'm thinking of the same two openings.....

The upper one is where the insulated connector for the antenna is located.

The lower one is the horn.

-Jeff
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Postby raalst » Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:53 pm

there are three openings (in the kit but also on photos)

one antenna feedthrough above the spray deflector on starbord
and two under the spraydeflector (one almost in it) on
the port side.
two down, one to go...
any idea ?

finished drilling up the decks btw. phew...
blisters on my hands (really !)
Regards,

Ronald van Aalst

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Postby JWLaRue » Fri Jan 02, 2004 10:20 pm

....sorry, my mistake.

The two below the spray deflector are the horn(s).

-Jeff
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Postby JC Carbonel » Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:15 am

Thank to all of you. I did not want to get into opening all the grids as I figured that
1- it would be tiresome, lengthy and difficult to do in a clean way (oval openings)
2- on pics of real ships it looks just like black holes
3- on a 1/72 model you would need to add the pressure hull and all the paraphenelia in-between ....


Final (I hope) question : what colours would you use in the Humbrol (enamel) or Tamiya (acrylic) range for the various greys involved ? Should not the wood dressing in the tower tub be ...wood colored ?

Sincerely

JCC
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Postby sam reichart » Sat Jan 03, 2004 9:49 am

JC-
see the rather detailed postings that Ronald van Aalst has going on building this model under the R/C Modeler forum on this board- the first post titled
"Revell VIIc shipping in Holland"- Ronald has opened all the slots and has photos of the work in progress.

When you say "wood dressing" - do you mean the wood slats on the inside wall of the conning tower? (to keep look outs from freezing to the side walls...)
I would do them in a gray color, since exposure to weather would certainly change them from brown/tan pretty quickly.

Jeff LaRue can recite by heart the colors used for U Boats- Jeff?? :;):
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Postby JWLaRue » Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:42 pm

We've got our U-boat color thread at:

Type VII paint scheme

Also, the current issue of the SubCommittee Report has an article on the paint scheme specifically for the U-47.

-enjoy!

Jeff
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Postby JC Carbonel » Sun Jan 04, 2004 6:44 am

Thank you. The reference to "green" is surprising because Revell and most of the color renditions I have seen use greys (with the difficulty of red OR dark grey for the underwater section)

Should'nt there be "somewhere" a plate with the U-number ? Revell supply nothing of the sort, only a larger rendition of the plate to use on the display stand but nothing for the ship herself ???

Sincerely

JCC
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Postby sam reichart » Sun Jan 04, 2004 10:25 am

JC- don't mistake "grun" for a real "green color"...it's more of a dark gray with a green cast to it. You have to see it to appreciate the color.

As far as a plate with the U number on it (only very very early boats had this, usually at the bow...) I'm not sure when this practice was discontinued.
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Postby JC Carbonel » Sun Jan 04, 2004 12:10 pm

Thank you ... no I just have to take my brush and my cement and go modelling.

Thanks to all on the board

JCC
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