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IRAQ

Place for general submarine conversation

Postby Carter » Mon Mar 17, 2003 11:41 pm

I just want to say that I support America's efforts in Iraq. I am not a big Bush supporter, but the events of the past several months have pretty much convinced me that he has proceeded carefully and judiciously.

Sorry, off topic, but it seems appropriate under the circumstances to acknowledge this.

Also, I wonder to what degree the ignorance of our fellow citizens have led us to this brink. I suggest that we do not know enough about our system of government in this country. As part of making our complex system work, I believe we must undersatand where our system comes from. Thus I am posting the following. F.Y.I.

The sources of American government and Culture: Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Knox, Oliver Cromwell, John Milton, John Locke, Thomas Jeferson, Andrew Jackson.
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Postby Carter » Tue Mar 18, 2003 12:07 am

Here's a bit on John Locke that gets to the main points:


John Locke was born in Bristol, England, on August 29, 1632. Locke's father was an attorney who collected taxes from seaport towns. He wanted his son to become a minister, but Locke rejected this and studied medicine. Locke entered Oxford University in England and was influenced by John Owen, Dean of Christ Church College. It was Owen who first introduced Locke to the idea of religious freedom and the idea that people should not be punished for having different views of religion. Locke believed that all sides had the right to be heard. Moreover, he felts that all conflicts could be solved if the two groups could settle their differences by seeking a middle ground and compromise.

After college, Locke continued to study and read with passion. He expressed his views about freedom of religion and the rights of citizens. In 1682 his ideas were seen by the English government as a challenge to thie King's authority. He fled to Holland, and then returned to England in 1689 after the Civil War in England. Shortly thereafter, Locke began publishing his writings, many of which focused on government. Throughout his writings, Locke argued that people had the gift of reason, or the ability to think. Locke thought they had the natural ability to govern themselves and to look after the well being of society. He wrote, "The state of nature has a law of nature to govern it, which [treats] everyone [equally]. Reason, which is that law, teaches all mankind... that being all equal and independent, no one ought to harm another in his life, health or possessions."

Locke did not believe that God had chosen a group or family of people to rule countries. He rejected the "Divine Right," which many kings and queens used to justify their right to rule. Instead, he argued that governments should only operate with the consent of the people they are governing. In this way, Locke supported democracy as a form of government. Locke wrote, "[We have learned from] history we have reason to conclude that all peaceful beginnings of government have been laid in the consent of the people." Governments were formed, according to Locke, to protect the right to life, the right to freedom, and the right to property. There rights were absolute, belonging to all the people. Locke also believed that government power should be divided equally into three branches of government so that politicians will not face the "temptation... to grasp at [absolute] power." If any government abused these rights instead of protecting them, then the people had the right to rebel and form a new government.

John Locke spoke out against the control of any man against his will. This control was acceptable neither in the form of an unfair government, nor in slavery. Locke wrote, "The natural liberty of man is to be free from any superior power on earth, and not to be under the will or legislative authority of man, but only have the law of nature for his rule." In addition, Locke felt that women had the ability to reason, which entitled them to an equal voice - an unpopular idea during this time in history. Despite fearing that he might be censored, he wrote, "It may not be [wrong] to offer new... [ideas] when the old [traditions] are apt to lead men into mistakes, as this [idea] of [fatherly] power's probably has done, which seems so [eager] to place the power of parents over their children wholly in the father, as if the mother had no share in it; whereas if we consult reason or [the Bible], we shall find she has an equal title."
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Postby Tom Spettel » Tue Mar 18, 2003 12:18 am

I agree with ya Carter..but i think we need more of the Gen. George S Patton types.. there would be no talk of this two-days-to-leave-the-country- bravo siearra...
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Postby Downscope » Tue Mar 18, 2003 3:09 am

My son is an aviator on the Nimitz. You can pretty well figure where I stand on this. How unfortunate George, Sr. and Colin Powell blew it the first time. Now we have to do it again. Maybe this time the politicians in DC will let our boys get the job done right with Saddam - send the son of a ##### straight to ####.
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Postby David H » Tue Mar 18, 2003 6:26 am

Hello all,

It's very interesting to get an idea of how Americans see this looming conflict. My country too ,Australia has committed military forces to the gulf and this has divided the nation. I think that the principles behind what Bush ,Blair and Howard are doing are correct, all Saddam has to do is the right thing, Fly out of the country with his cronies.
"Baldrick ,you would'nt recognise a subtle plan if it painted itself purple and danced on top a harpsichord singing "Subtle plans are here again!!" Blackadder.
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Postby Corsaire » Wed Mar 19, 2003 4:06 pm

Status Quo forever…
Bush’s administration had to respond to a higher power (not talking about God here): the great capitalist groups - our society, as we know it, among other strategic and political reasons. Saddam threatens the status quo, US Interests, US Security, he’s nothing more than a dangerous piece in this socio-economic and political world chess game which has to be removed, one way or another, his father couldn’t do it the first time around because of the implied diplomatic circumstances of the crisis back then, 12 years has passed, mediations went, mediations came, it finally became crystal clear Hussein wasn’t going anywhere. President Bush knew this from the very outset when he deployed our troops to the Persian Gulf again, this time to get it over with once and for all, knew also that with or without the UN consensus we were going in, no backing out - a problem has to be fixed, and fixed now, proactive rather than reactive to protect the status quo, it could very well become too late failing to do so.
God bless America and our allies on these moments of truth.
Boarding party....AWAY!!!
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Postby Corsaire » Wed Mar 19, 2003 5:14 pm

Folks,
You won't hear or read this on CNN or any other news network in the States, but Iraq's Foreign Minister Naji Sabri on a press conference last night asserted:
"Any american or british soldiers - infidel,invaders- who set foot on Iraq's soil who have the misfortune to get captured will either be burned alive or forced knelt to be decapitated"
We better do this quick and effectively folks!
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Postby Pat Davis » Wed Mar 19, 2003 8:41 pm

Being a Canadian... I'm not much for war.

Bush has handled the situation admirably. But I don't nessasarily agree with the intent.
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Postby Ubootman » Thu Mar 20, 2003 4:29 pm

I, of course, support our troops and the decision to attack Iraq in order to protect ourselves and avoid future terrorism and blood shed.
While I am not a fan of anything Middle Eastern (I enlisted when Iran had taken our embassy) I am even a lesser fan of Israel and the millions of dollars we give to them monthly. The fact that this war will benefit Israel irks me. But that's just my opinion.

Interesting reading: www.nowarforisrael.com
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Postby AntoineL » Thu Mar 20, 2003 4:37 pm

Hot posts.......warning.......hot subject.
I dont see anything sub related. Except the fact that the USS Montpelier and USS Cheyenne fired Tom. last night.

Please keep this board clean of that. I am sure you could find boards to express your feeling about that .

A french point of view. (I know it wont please few.)

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Postby FX Models » Fri Mar 21, 2003 12:26 am

AntoineL wrote:Hot posts.......warning.......hot subject.
I dont see anything sub related. Except the fact that the USS Montpelier and USS Cheyenne fired Tom. last night.

Please keep this board clean of that. I am sure you could find boards to express your feeling about that .

A french point of view. (I know it wont please few.)

Antoine Lenormand

Hi Antoine...

Its not that being French will cause some people to be displeased with your comments. While the French government has taken an approach that is appeasement versus action most of us realize that this is not the opinion of every French person.

That said, who planted the Serin toxin in the French subway today? I just heard it and was curious.

In any case, I am sure we will get back on RC sub topics soon enough. You can understand our pre-occupation with Iraq though of course...

Thanks,
Marc
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Postby FX Models » Fri Mar 21, 2003 12:37 am

FX Models wrote:That said, who planted the Serin toxin in the French subway today? I just heard it and was curious.

whoops...

I meant Ricin, not Serin.. sorry...
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Postby Silent Hunter » Fri Mar 21, 2003 1:18 am

Not sure why the French have to be so pussy about the Iraqi conflict. We helped them out in Viet Nam. Remember "French Indo-China"? Perhaps France doesn't want to lose a "good customer" of their arms sales.
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Postby ThierryC » Fri Mar 21, 2003 1:44 am

Not sure why the US have to be so pussy about North Korea. Perhaps the US is scared to go against somebody that really has weapons of mass destruction...
Sorry, but your message was uncalled for, Silent Hunter !

And being french doesn't make me a surrendering wuss !!!




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Postby Membership » Fri Mar 21, 2003 8:40 am

Folks,
As I suspected would happen, this off-topic thread has degenrated into namecalling and generalizations. This will not be tolerated, and this thread has been locked.

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