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SAY WHAT, a seawater/electric AIP submarine

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SAY WHAT, a seawater/electric AIP submarine

Postby gp100man » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:11 pm

This could be a mayjor breakthrough in the electric/AIP submarine quest.

http://news.yahoo.com/us-navy-game-chan ... 44958.html
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Re: SAY WHAT, a seawater/electric AIP submarine

Postby Tom Dougherty » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:55 pm

There is a fundamental flaw somewhere here, as it will require a source of energy to capture and recombine the carbon and hydrogen to form hydrocarbons. In fact, it will require more power to do this than will be derived from the burning of the fuel itself (unless the First Law of Thermodynamics has been repealed and Perpetual Motion Machines are now okay). You can't build energetic hydrocarbon bonds (i.e. make ethylene) from hydrogen and carbon elements without putting that energy (and suffer an entropic loss in the process, requiring additional energy input) in during the synthesis process.

So, unless there is energy input, you can't make hydrocarbon fuel from CO2 and H2. You could use something like nuclear power for the energy source, but then why bother to make hydrocarbons to propel your ship? There is no free lunch.
Tom Dougherty
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Project Azorian Documentary: http://www.projectjennifer.at/
Project Azorian Book: http://www.usni.org/store/catalog-fall-2012/project-azorian
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Re: SAY WHAT, a seawater/electric AIP submarine

Postby steh2o » Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:06 am

Hello Tom,
perhaps the whole game is just NOT using oil (coming from shore deposits), but a seawater-extracted fuel. What about a few nuclear-propelled fleet oilers syinthesizing fuel from seawater and servicing conventionally-powered ships underway?
Let's see what happens in the future,
Stefano
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Re: SAY WHAT, a seawater/electric AIP submarine

Postby Tom Dougherty » Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:11 pm

Or, we could do some simple back of the envelope mathematics in the present.

Okay, what is the concentration of carbon in seawater? It is 28 parts per million, so to make just one liter of diesel ( between 8 and 21 carbon atoms per molecule), I need to process between 285,000 to 714,300 liters of water (assuming 100% extraction efficiency-good luck with that). In gallons, I need to process roughly 70,000-180,000 gallons of seawater to get the carbon for one liter of diesel fuel. How much energy is needed to pump roughly 120,000 gallons through the processing system for that carbon to make up that one liter? And that is the energy needed just to supply the raw carbon. Additional energy is needed to then recombine the carbon and hydrogen into diesel. Remember, the First Law of Thermodynamics means you need to put more energy into making the diesel fuel than you will ever get out of it.

If I assume I need roughly 100,000 gallons (a WWII diesel sub load) of fuel, then I need to process (at 100% efficiency) 48000000000 gallons of sea water just to obtain the carbon I need. And, a gallon of seawater weighs just over 8 Lbs., so you need to process 192,000,000 tons of water just to get your carbon. Then I need the additional energy to make the diesel from hydrogen and carbon. Oh. yeah, and you need energy to extract the hydrogen from water as well. Better bring one hell of a very large nuclear reactor to power the whole process.
Tom Dougherty
Researcher for Project Azorian
Project Azorian Documentary: http://www.projectjennifer.at/
Project Azorian Book: http://www.usni.org/store/catalog-fall-2012/project-azorian
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Tom Dougherty
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Re: SAY WHAT, a seawater/electric AIP submarine

Postby steh2o » Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:52 am

Hello Tom,
perhaps they'll produce methane, they need just about 17000 l of seawater for one liter of liquid methane :D
I love NRL, I have produced a couple of laser sources for them.
Let's see what they'll do with this stuff!
Stefano
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