Banner Ad 1

General adhesive and bonding questions

R/C Submarine modelers

General adhesive and bonding questions

Postby Warpatroller » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:23 pm

I will be needing to bond styrene, urethane, cast metal, brass and aluminum parts for the sub I am working on.

My kit and instructions are from the 1984 to 1995 era. So I would like to hear any suggestions on what products you people currently are using for bonding purposes. There are two principle bonding agents mentioned in the instructions which are CA and 5-minute epoxy.

I have read about Merriman using a product called Ambroid PROWELD for "fusing" plastic to plastic. So I was thinking of going with that for my styrene to styrene attachments.

For adhering the cast metal parts to plastic, it looks like CA is best. Zap CA is specifically mentioned along with Hot Stuff (which appears to be watery and good for parts that fit very well). UFO Oderless Thick seems to be intended for bonding to foam, but is also thicker for bonding looser fitting parts.

For bonding urethane to brass or aluminum, 5-minute epoxy is recommended. I guess this would also be good for bonding brass or aluminum to styrene.. What is a good 5-minute epoxy? Maybe Devcon? What do you guys use?

Thanks,

Steve
User avatar
Warpatroller
SubCommittee Member
 
Posts: 266
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:53 pm
Location: Scottsdale, AZ

Postby petn7 » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:55 pm

I use JB Weld when I need to bond metal to plastic or metal to metal and it works pretty well. It really helps to roughen up the surface, though.

I would not use 5 minute epoxy if the joint will be exposed to water. I would use JB Weld or epoxy that takes several hours to fully cure.
User avatar
petn7
SubCommittee Member
 
Posts: 582
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2003 3:50 pm
Location: PA

Postby Chuck Chesney » Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:14 pm

I say DITTO to what petn7 said. 5 minute epoxy will get gummy and rubbery in water, and the actual bond is fairly weak. JB Weld is first rate for fiberglass, metals and probably styrene. I usually let it cure over night, and it's stronger than anything else available to the mortal man.
Chuck

"The Japanese solders would die for the Emperor, which made them formidable. The U.S. Marines would die for each other, which made them invinceable"...Iwo Jima
Chuck Chesney
Registered User
 
Posts: 174
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 2:43 pm
Location: Preston, Idaho

Postby Warpatroller » Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:53 pm

Thanks for the responses.

I checked in my storage closet and I actually have a package of J-B Kwik that I had purchased about 3 years ago, never used and cannot even remember why I bought it..

I got this info from the J-B website. The Kwik apparently is just a faster bonding version of J-B Weld for more rapid use. Pliable only for 2 minutes, sets in 4 minutes and is fully cured in 4 hours. Though it does not form quite as strong of a bond as the Weld product does. The Weld is pliable for 30 minutes, sets in 4 to 6 hours, and fully cures in 15 to 24 hours. Looks like in some cases parts bonded with the Weld will have to be clamped or held rigidly in place for 4 to 6 hours. Both products would probably be good to have depending on the situation, so I'll pick up some of the Weld too.

Any idea on the shelf life of this stuff? As I said, my J-B Kwik has been sitting in its package for 3 years now. Should it still be good to use?

Steve
User avatar
Warpatroller
SubCommittee Member
 
Posts: 266
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:53 pm
Location: Scottsdale, AZ

Postby Warpatroller » Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:59 pm

How about when bonding cast metal parts to my styrene hull and tower, which do you think would be less likely for the part to break off the sub:

CA or J-B Kwik? Which would make a stronger bond?

Steve
User avatar
Warpatroller
SubCommittee Member
 
Posts: 266
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:53 pm
Location: Scottsdale, AZ

Postby petn7 » Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:26 pm

My guess is that JB Kwik should be ok for submerged use. This is because it takes 4 hours to fully cure. However, I would use regular JB Weld just to be safe. I use this stuff everywhere on my subs and love it. As for JB Kwik's shelf life, several years seems like a long time, but I have no clue for sure as to whether it's still good or not. I would spend the extra few dollars for extra peace of mind and go with regular JB Weld.

CA can produce a pretty strong bond, especially if the parts were roughly sanded to allow for a secure hold. For gluing joints that would create a fillet, I would use JB Weld.
User avatar
petn7
SubCommittee Member
 
Posts: 582
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2003 3:50 pm
Location: PA

Postby bos10 » Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:40 pm

I have used West System products in the 1:1 world with excellent results. I have also used them on my sub. When I have to bond metal to fiberglass or resin I use their G/Flex Epoxy. From their site:

"a toughened, versatile, liquid epoxy for permanent waterproof bonding of fiberglass, ceramics, metals, plastics, damp and difficult-to-bond woods. With a modulus of elasticity of 150,000 PSI, it is a bit more flexible than standard epoxies and polyester, but much stiffer than adhesive sealants. This gives G/flex the ability to make structural bonds that can absorb the stress of expansion, contraction, shock and vibration. It is ideal for bonding dissimilar materials. It can be modified with West System fillers and additives, and used to wet-out fiberglass tapes and fabrics. Mixed at a 1:1 ratio, G/flex gives you 45 minutes of working time at room temperature. It reaches an initial cure in 7 to 10 hrs and full cure in 24 hrs"

Their stuff is a little more expensive, but it's excellent. No matter what I'd check out their expoy guides which are for 1:1 world but very applicable to modeling (http://www.westsystem.com/ss/use-guides/). They are single best source that I have found for using expoxies.
bos10
Registered User
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 11:45 am
Location: Boston, MA USA

Postby junglelord » Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:19 pm

I just put together a resin 24" Seaview. I used JB Weld on that.
It was my first time with the product for models.
I loved it. It cleans off with a wet cloth, works well with your fingers or a tool and sands great. Solid as a rock and I will use it on my Moebiuw Seaview.
User avatar
junglelord
Registered User
 
Posts: 347
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:11 am
Location: Ontario Canada

Epoxy bonds

Postby Pedro Gómez » Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:39 am

To bond different materials (very good with all materials, too betweeen different materials) I use:
-Nural 21, 12 hours, a based epoxy industrial two compounds adhesive.
-I use too stratify fiberglass epoxy two compounds 12 hours or 24 hours, plus microballoons.
-For quick bonds, I use Epoxy 5 minutes plus microballons.
User avatar
Pedro Gómez
SubCommittee Member
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:39 am
Location: Barcelona (Spain)

Postby Darksheer » Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:08 pm

question concerning epoxy
alot of my robbe U47 is reinforced with epoxy and the brand i use was the only one i could find that mentions it can be submerged in water

its called "permapoxy" and the company name is permatex

im kinda worried that all this epoxy is going to turn to mush when i put my boat in the water

is there any way to seal this stuff with say paint or anything ???

taken from company website

Permatex® PermaPoxy™ 5 Minute General Purpose Epoxy

Versatile, easy-to-use, general purpose epoxy adhesive is two-part adhesive and filler system that eliminates the need for welding or brazing. Sets in five minutes, no clamping needed. Clear appearance. Fills gaps and will not shrink. Resistant to water and solvents.Temperature range -60°F to 180°F (-51°C to 82°C). Permanent strength up to 3400 PSI.
Darksheer
Registered User
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:30 am
Location: Winnipeg Canada

Postby Warpatroller » Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:01 pm

Looks like the verdict on 5 minute epoxy is inconclusive.. I see Pedro mentioned that he uses it for quick bonds, and I assume he must be referring to using it on his submarine models.

It would also seem to me very strange that 32nd Parallel would ship instructions that call for using 5 minute epoxy if the bond was just going to turn to mush and fall apart in the water. My kit documentation proves that they at least recommended using the 5 minute epoxy for the first 11 years that my model was in production!

Perhaps there can be a difference in the performance of different brands of 5 minute epoxy? And the noted instance above of it getting gummy was from a less than stellar product? It would make sense that a longer curing epoxy would create a stronger more durable bond, but is a boat really doomed to fall apart if it is held together with 5 minute epoxy?

My boat's hull halves and pressure hull were pre-bonded when the kit was manufactured using an adhesive called "Versilok". It looks like this was some form of epoxy-modified acrylic adhesive, but I would think it must be sound in the water, as this kit was in production for around 17 years!

It would be nice to hear some additional input on this from the long term vets, like Skip Asay and Mike Dory to clarify this epoxy question.

Steve
User avatar
Warpatroller
SubCommittee Member
 
Posts: 266
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:53 pm
Location: Scottsdale, AZ

Postby Crazy Ivan » Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:23 pm

Dean,

Be careful where you use JB Weld on that Moebius Seaview. I used it to bond the long seams on my Gato and found that if the hull flexed (which your resin model likely wouldn't have done) the JB Weld had a tendency to crack. As Steve mentioned above, for styrene to styrene bonding you can't beat using a solvent welder such as Ambroid Pro Weld, which literally fuses the plastic together into a single piece. The resulting joint is as strong as or stronger than the original material.

I do use some JB Weld in places on my Seaview, but only as a seam filler after the bond has been made with the Ambroid. JB Weld works best as a primary bonder where there is a good amount of contact area, with no flexing.
George "Crazy Ivan" Protchenko
Image

“There are the assassins, the dealers in death; I am the Avenger!”-Nemo
"I'm disinclined to acquiesce to your request; means No!"-Capt.Barbossa
User avatar
Crazy Ivan
SubCommittee Member
 
Posts: 622
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2003 2:42 am
Location: Rochester, NY, USA

Postby RickNelson » Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:22 pm

I suggest trying one of the polyurethane glues like Gorilla Glue or Titebond Polyurethane. It performs like an epoxy but you have to be sure to clamp the parts as it tries to expand while curing. I'm very impressed with the results I've had with it.
Rick Nelson

Qualified in Submarines 1965
SCM #2583

"D..n the pressure, Six-Zero feet!"
"Most men would rather die than think, Most of them do!" - Bertrand Russell
"Boomers hide with Pride"
User avatar
RickNelson
Registered User
 
Posts: 188
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:57 pm
Location: Palm Harbor, Florida

Postby Al Nuci » Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:23 pm

Here is just another product to add to the mix, I've recently had the occasion to use LOCTITE MARINE EPOXY, this product was used to mend a large crack along the bottom of a large plastic tray which occasionally holds water. This epoxy sets in 50 minutes and can be applied underwater. It is used for bonding: Metals, Glass, Ceramic, Plastic, Tile, PVC Pipes, Copper Pipes, brass Pipes, and Galvanized Pipes, so it will definitely not break down when exposed to water. I happened to use it on plastic and it hardened like steel, it consistently is subjected to being banged, and slammed around at my work and the crack has remained sealed and intack so it has proven to be quite durable. It can be sanded/machined in 24 hrs. and claimes not to shrink or expand. Simply another consideration. Al,
Al Nuci
Registered User
 
Posts: 138
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 6:29 pm
Location: Venice, Florida

Postby junglelord » Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:46 pm

Crazy Ivan wrote:Dean,

Be careful where you use JB Weld on that Moebius Seaview. I used it to bond the long seams on my Gato and found that if the hull flexed (which your resin model likely wouldn't have done) the JB Weld had a tendency to crack. As Steve mentioned above, for styrene to styrene bonding you can't beat using a solvent welder such as Ambroid Pro Weld, which literally fuses the plastic together into a single piece. The resulting joint is as strong as or stronger than the original material.

I do use some JB Weld in places on my Seaview, but only as a seam filler after the bond has been made with the Ambroid. JB Weld works best as a primary bonder where there is a good amount of contact area, with no flexing.

Thanks Ivan I appreciate that. The resin model was for display purpose only. I will pick up some Ambroid Pro Weld. I look forward to meeting you this summer at Bens Cottage.
Cheers
Dean
User avatar
junglelord
Registered User
 
Posts: 347
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:11 am
Location: Ontario Canada

Next

Return to R/C Modeler

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users