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My 1st post (with many questions) - Engel diving systems

R/C Submarine modelers

Postby USSTang » Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:04 pm

Hello to all,

I'm in the "planning for kit purchase" phase, and have decided on the supplier: Engel. Also know very specific what boat I wanna build ("USS Tang", Balao class WW2 U.S. fleet sub), and will use the Engel 'Gato' kit as the basis.

I'm nearing the point that I want to order a kit, but am puzzled by a few things, and am hoping some people here will be kind enough to share some information.

P.s. yes, I know from experience engel are good as answering questions like the ones I got, but I am hoping to get some additional 'field experience advice' from the community here.

I have some experience in building a target (surface ship), but determining what I need for control (that allows manourves I want to be able to do) of a submarine seems the 1st challange, and I want to determine this upfront (yes, I realise I can always adjust plans later, but in this case, knowing 1st seems to me like a good idea).

Below is a basic Tx configuration I came up with using the info I have so far.

Tx Layout, planned F14 Navy from Robbe:
==============================

Left stick (2x 'throttle' type)
---------------------------------------
- Left engine
- Right engine

Right stick ('joystick')
-------------------------------
- Forward Dive planes
- Rudder

4/4 Tx expansion (4x switch 4x rotary)
--------------------------------------------------------
- Rotary knop to control TEAS
- Switch On/Off Pitch controller (stern planes)

Questions:
========
1. About using the F14 Navy, if I need control of the engines seperatly (see next question), i'll take the navy versions, if I dont, I'll pick up the 'regular' f14.

2. Does anyone know if the fleetboats ever used the engines seperatly (IF they where able to at all) (lets say port forward, starboard reverse, to decrease turning radius). If not, I see no more point in getting the 'navy' controller. If they did use enigines assymetrical, I'd like to be able to do so also with my sub.

3. Engel recommends 2 speedcontrollers. If NOT controlling the motors seperatly but with only 1 channel, does 2 speedcontrollers still make sense, and/or is it possible to connect both to the same receiver channel at the receiver.

4. The idea of being able to shut off the pitch control is to allow 'manual' pitch control to (for example) crash dive and/or make a titlted breach at the surface. Cant attach 2 servo's to 1 planes, so my idea is to attach the (bow) planes to a Tx stick, the aft planes to a APC, which can be shut off (planes level), by a switch channel. Or is there a better solution for this and am I overlooking something??? Also no clue as to what gives more control: bow or stern planes, or only when used both at the same time?

5. I wonder about the 'slider' method of the TEAS ballast control with the 4 positions (I found an archived thread explaning this a bit). It only 'sees' 4 positions if I understand correctly, so there is no way to fine-tune bouyancy from the TX? Additionally, as I understand it (since 4 positions doesnt sound very proportional), the speed at which the tanks flood or blow is fixed, making 'scale-speed' diving hard, and possibly making a spectacular surface breach impossible (could maybe still be done using max speed and dive-planes).

No worries yet, as i'm in the investigation stage (havent spend a single penny yet, and will first get the kit and later the controller), but I want to make shure the diving system I order gives enough options to do the manouvres I want to with the sub.

Maybe what I need/want turns out to be AE, TA or TAE, but the TEAS seems appealing and most complete, but am afraid maybe all the automation; which is required for some manourvers; prevent other manouvres.

I find the descriptions of the workings of the different systems (AE / TA / TAE / TAES) pretty confusing. I'd love the 'fully automatic' TEAS system, but I wonder if it doesnt take a whole lot of flexibility from the controls. Same goes for using a pitch-controller, I think I need it since I want to be able to make speedy periscope runs and then the sub must be rock-steady, but also want to be able to freely control pitch using the diveplanes.

Any additional info is highly appreciated.


Additional info on my plans: Build time estimate = 2 to 5 years. Phase 1: working submarine, Phase 2, add retractable periscope & sound module (including scratch-build new conning tower if needed), Phase 3: rotating radar antenea & working hydrophone (non-directional), Phase 4: Torpedo tube doors open/close + torpedo tubes Phase 5: launchable torpedo's.
USSTang
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Location: Holland - Apeldoorn

Postby KOEZE » Fri Aug 29, 2003 3:04 am

The navy version is an option but i don't think that with such a long boat the effect will be noticable. If you go with the normal tx you can always choose to mix the rudder and esc's by means of a mixer. You'll have to use to esc's though.
I can always recommend 2 esc's because of redundancy. If one breaks or the prop becomes entangled with weed or anything like that you will still have control over your boat.

About ballast control. I don't know the Engel system but I know of a plan in Norbert Bruggen's book available at Modeluboot.de for a fully propotional piston tank.

You can also use his controllers for the depth and pitch control of your submarine. That way you have and alternative. There is also subtech, a guy named Nils Canditt (I have one of his) and probably more suppliers of depth controllers. I think they might even be cheaper than Engel.

Hope this helps.

EJK
You don't stop playing because you get older,
you get older because you stop playing.
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KOEZE
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Postby KOEZE » Fri Aug 29, 2003 5:19 am

For a mixer that inputs rudder and throttle and outputs to two different esc's and rudder where the rudder is assisited by the esc's check out this sit.
Mixer

EJK
You don't stop playing because you get older,
you get older because you stop playing.
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KOEZE
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Postby USSTang » Fri Aug 29, 2003 7:05 am

Erik,

Thanks for the replies :D especially the link + idea of the mixer, I like that concept.

I think point about the length and narrow width of the ship degrading impact of seperatly controlled screws is vary valid though. I'll think I'll stick to simult. control in my Phase 1, can always add a mixer later. I do wonder though if a mixer could result in a change (improvement or degrading) in high-speed turn behaviour in terms of yaw (think thats the term... I mean keeping the conning tower and rest of the sub 'straight' up) stability.

As for the alternative pitchcontrollers and diving systems, i've investigated many of them but engel's seems most appealing (and price differences arent that enormous compared to the total initial purchase cost of the kit), I know I want :;): one of theirs , just am wondering which one cause I dont want it to be so over-automated that certain manouvres become impossible ??? , hence the info request . My main concern is the 4-position system, it is unclear to me if those 4 positions (surface, dive, hover, park) are fixed or proportional in the 'between positions' (want to be able to crash dive but also to make a 'slow' decent for example).

I'll join the subcommittee as soon as I've ordered & receive my kit, seems like a excellent source of info . :;):

thanks again for posting!
USSTang
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Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:06 am
Location: Holland - Apeldoorn


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